FX-50 type developer

Another experiment. In former safety data for G.W.Crawley's two part FX-50 ascorbate developer the primary developing agent was never disclosed, the B solution contained carbonate.
I made this FX-50 type developer,possibly similar in properties to FX-50:
A. Ascorbic acid(vitamin C powder) 15g/L
Phenidone 0.6 g/L (equal to 1/25 the weight of ascorbic acid)
Sodium sulfite 140g/L
B. Sodium carbonate anhydrous 80 g/L (or 216 g/L washing soda
crystals,needs filtering.)
For use take 1 part A, 1 part B, 8 parts water.
I compared APX 100,sun/shade exposures, developed in PC-TEA 1:50 13.75min 68F (EI=80) and in FX-50 type 1+1+8 10 min 68F (EI=125).The FX-50 type gave 2/3 stop more film speed.There is an increase in grain with the FX-50 type,but IMO it is acceptable for landscapes on 12x8 prints from 35mm.

Incidentally, the concentrations of phenidone and ascorbate in the working solution are PC-TEA 1:50 0.05, 1.8 g/L,FX-50 type 0.06,1.5g/l, ie, similar,indicating that PC-TEA 1:50 made up in a working solution of sodium sulfite 14g/L and sodium carbonate 8g/L may give 2/3 stop speed increase,I did not try it.
Anyhow the experiment indicated the connection between carbonate and speed increase.

FX-50 was said to yield excellent quality negatives when tested by Roger Hicks, but I think it suffered from a sudden loss of activity like Xtol did in the early years. I haven`t read much about Xtol failure lately and suspect that Kodak have found a way of preventing that from happening.
In the fullness of time, I would like to see Kodak offer a liquid concentrated B&W film developer of the Xtol type with development times for other popular brands of film as well as their own.
If enough people ask Kodak for it, then maybe Kodak`s R&D will get busy designing it.

Xtol only suffered from loss of activity because of a packaging problem with the smaller sizes, the developer itself is fine.

I need to stick a few Ascorbic / Phenidone developers into my database & compare them properly with what you've suggested. The first Patents for Ascorbic devs with Metol & Phenidone predate Xtol by quite a few years, in fact Xtol was released after those Patents had expired, perhaps not a co-incidence.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Xtol only suffered from loss of activity because of a packaging problem with the smaller sizes, the developer itself is fine.

I need to stick a few Ascorbic / Phenidone developers into my database & compare them properly with what you've suggested. The first Patents for Ascorbic devs with Metol & Phenidone predate Xtol by quite a few years, in fact Xtol was released after those Patents had expired, perhaps not a co-incidence.

Ian

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The only powder form photo-chemical that I currently use is Kodak D-76 which I have in 1 litre sizes in tin cans. I had considered trying the 5 litre size of D-76 and D-76R that I was given some years ago, but I have decided not to for reasons I wont go into where replenishment is required.
The 5 litre size packages of Xtol are too much for me, particularly as I prefer to dilute these developers 1+1 for one-shot use. I use a print developer sold as a liquid concentrate and all the other processing chemicals that I use are sold as liquid concentrates as well. If Kodak offer a liquid variant of XTol, I would switch to it when my D-76 runs out, as I eventually want to use all processing chemicals that are sold as liquids for convenience.
I have tried many of the popular liquid film developers in the past, but I have always preferred D-76. A liquid Xtol type that performs as well as the current powder form product will persuade me to finally abandon powder form film developers altogether.

If anyone wants to try using a replenished developer and lives locally to me, I have a 5 litre size mix of both Kodak D-76 developer and D-76R replenisher which you can collect. Also, a 5 litre mix of Microdol-X. I could send it packaged, but I`m not sure of the cost. All of these are in their original containers as dry powder.

Ian Grant said:

Xtol only suffered from loss of activity because of a packaging problem with the smaller sizes, the developer itself is fine.

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I had it in 5 litre packs, and had two cases of 'sudden death'. I don't think the developer dies any more frequently or rapidly than any other developer - the only problem was it doesn't turn brown and smelly like D-76 will. I just gave up on the stuff. Kodak should figure out how to put an indicator in so it turns color when it goes bad, it is a very good developer.

When not depleting my Tech Pan, I have standardized on Microdol-X and T-Max 100 - the grain is finer than X-Tol and I can't say I see any meaningful speed penalty. So why bother with X-Tol?

For my next dose of weird developer I am going to try grass clippings and baking soda. I expect it to be almost, but not quite, a total failure. There is nothing more ennobling than a noble failure.

You can add anything you want to the water of dilution of PC-TEA without affecting the shelf life of the concentrate. A 4 liters of water with about 60 grams each of anhydrous carbonate and sodium sulfite would keep a long time and could be used in many fanciful ways.

Alan Johnson said:

Anyhow the experiment indicated the connection
between carbonate and speed increase.

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Or, the connection between the higher ph and speed
increase. I've often wondered about that. For a time
I was using a metol/sulfite mix then switched to one
which included carbonate. Can't say I've made any
exact quatitative comparisons but suspect no
speed gain resulted.

At this time I'm back to that D-23 type but using
it very dilute; 1:7. The one roll given zone testing
looks very good but is still waiting exact readings.
I've a good densitometer for the purpose.

I'm sure there are some out there who have likewise
investigated the ph vs speed relationship. Dan

According to the safety data sheet, FX-50 definitely had sulfite in it.Maybe it increases emulsion speed by uncovering latent image sites, it is below the level ,about 40g/L, at which sulfite is said to begin becoming solvent.
As mentioned, there were quite a few reports of failure or reduced activity of FX-50. If this was due to the ascorbate being oxidised,could it not have been made to last longer by putting more ascorbate in the concentrate I wonder.

I would also be interested in finding a substitute for FX 50. I loved the quality of FX 50 negatives and was prepared to get really familiar with it but then it seemed that I could only purchase apparently out of date developer. I hope that someone will make available a premixed dry or liquid formula.

From what I have seen in "The Theory of the Photographic Process" Sulfite does not replenish Metol. It takes away the metol waste products that inhibit development and in the long run the Metol gets weaker. Hydroquinone by itself did nothing. Ascorbate regenerated the Metol.. or at least that was the theory. A small amount of sulfite along with hydroquinone apparently regenerates the Metol. Metol combined with a small amount of sulfite (0.05 mol) is, for at least a time, as active as Metol regenerated by 0.05 mol ascorbate.

As we know, sulfite and ascorbate can be oxidized by aerial gases. I would say don't store either of them in the "meditation chamber."

With regard to ascorbate, there is a proportion of ascorbate to Metol or Phenidone that gives maximum activity. While greater amounts will not affect activity immediately, due to the regenerative effect they may extend the active life of the developer. A problem is that the pH of the ascorbate decreases because of the oxidation.

We solve some problems by one-shot use. There is, however, not much worse in the life of a photographer than finding that an ounce of unused developer from a half-full bottle of concentrate is dead as a doornail. Is there a kind of bacteria or virus that could live in developer stock? Probably. If there are things that can live in the bottom of a deep ocean, breathing sulfurous infernos of fantastically high pressure water, why not?

These considerations only apply to the amount of this or that that would affect potency or keeping qualities. Aesthetic demands are a horse of another color.

I've been up too late.

gainer said:

Is there a kind of bacteria or virus that could live in developer stock? Probably. .

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Virus: nope--needs living cells to do any metabolizing.
Bacteria: possibility. Would expect to see some cloudyness from relatively large numbers required to have a major quantitative effect on a chemical solution.

Personal hypothesis: I wonder about the influence of purity of the base ingredients: for my home brew stuff I'll usually use 98--99% purity reagents on a cost-benefit basis. 1% of something else might do interesting things if you got unlucky. I doubt the profitability of developers is such that Kodak etc will go to 99.9% or higher purity.
Failing that there are days when *insert your favourite or required deity* just picks on you.

I think PC-Glycol is a good, versatile part A of any number of 2-part developers. Using TEA as B, you can have PC-TEA + or -. I just tried sodium metaborate as B with very good results. If you feel lonesome for sulfite, you can add that as well. Both the metaborate and the sulfite are quickly dissolved, so you need not store the B solution, and if you did, it would last a long time. The PC-Glycol I used was several years old in a half-full bottle with no sign of aging. You can mix it in glycerol from the drug store if you don't mind the higher viscosity.

It seems to me that one of these 2 part concoctions should be equivalent to FX 50 without the failure.

I dont know much about propylene glycol, would this dissolve?
A. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C powder) 15g
Phenidone 0.6g
Propylene glycol to 200 ml
B. Sodium Sulfite 140g
Sodium Carbonate anhydrous 80g (or 216g washing soda crystals, needs filtering)
Water to 1L
For use take 20ml A plus 100ml B to make 1L working solution.
Developing time for APX 100 10min 68F

Regarding the metaborate vs carbonate B solution, Crawley(FX-50) and Suzuki(DS-12) used carbonate sulfite.Neither disclosed the reason for not using metaborate, it may be related to film speed.DS-12 only has 2g/L carbonate in the working solution and is buffered.Less carbonate than given in the formula above may change grain/speed.

Should dissolve. Warm it to about 150 F for quicker solution. I don't see much correlation of speed with alkali. I have used TEA, carbonate, metaborate. I like metaborate because of my hard water. With carbonate I get limestone in my soup.

OK,thanks for the info.The organic solvent solutions are very handy for solutions only used occasionally.