Future technological developments of films

somak · May 6, 2007

We have seen the rapid progress of digital cameras particularly sensors and softwares in recent time , and we expect this to continue, at a pace something akin to Moore's law.

What about the scientific progress in the field of film technology? I believe film will be still there after a decade from now. Maybe fewer people will be using them, but it'll still be there. What kind of films will be available at that time? Something that will supersede velvia? something that allows the user to dynamically change the particular frame's ISO (like in digital cams). Reusable film? Some well known camera makers have already stopped producing film cameras. Will they start producing film bodies again? Can nanotechnolgy help in improving films?

Soliciting comments from the experts here

Photo Engineer · May 6, 2007

Reversal color films will probably vanish before color negative films.

The rate of new technology being discovered for new analog products is slowing due to it being a quite mature science. If profitability continues to decline and research becomes more difficult, then new discoveries are harder and more expensive to make.

PE

Ryuji · May 6, 2007

somak said:
Can nanotechnolgy help in improving films?

Actually, emulsion technology is a very successful example of nano technology. They just didn't use the word.

There are technologies that are used in other applications taht are yet to come to pictorial photography. Thermally developable emulsions are used in medical and printing applications now.

Roger Hicks · May 6, 2007

somak said:
What about the scientific progress in the field of film technology?

Quite a bit of progress that has already been made will never see the light of day. Reasons:

1 Cost of launching a new product

2 Conservatism of the market

3 Even greater conservatism of marketing departments

Cheers,

R.

Ryuji · May 6, 2007

Roger Hicks said:
Quite a bit of progress that has already been made will never see the light of day. Reasons:

1 Cost of launching a new product

2 Conservatism of the market

3 Even greater conservatism of marketing departments

2.5 Dependencies of the users on obsolete information sources influencing the market

4 Even greater conservatism of retailers and distribution channels (yes they are paying for the space and the people)

5 Even greater cynicism of people who were happy with Panatomic-X and Super-XX.

roteague · May 6, 2007

somak said:
We have seen the rapid progress of digital cameras particularly sensors and softwares in recent time , and we expect this to continue, at a pace something akin to Moore's law.

Advances in sensor technology has nothing to do with Moore's law. Digital sensor technology is more related to signal processing technology. It isn't the sensors that are getting better, is is the ability to process the sensors output that is getting better.

eddym · May 6, 2007

Ryuji said:
Actually, emulsion technology is a very successful example of nano technology. They just didn't use the word.

Maybe they should. Might give film more cachet...

Ryuji · May 7, 2007

eddym said:
Maybe they should. Might give film more cachet...

Well, I can talk about emulsion technology and how that has photographic effects, but only solid state physicists (or material scientists) will be able to understand...

copake_ham · May 7, 2007

Here we go again.

A newbie's second post to the site asks the cosmic questions that have previously resulted in threads that clog the archives of this site. And everyone starts to answer anew.

So, where is this one going to go first? F-I-D or D-v-A, or vice versa? :rolleyes:

AgX · May 8, 2007

Before looking into the future, let’s look back to the year 2000 and its promising ideas.
In the "2000 International Symposium on Silver Halide Imaging: Recent Advances and Future Opportunities in Silver Halide Imaging" you will find:

In the present paper, author will further discuss the recent activity in AgX technology which was adopted in high speed and high color fidelity photography… Finally a photographic mechanism to achieve an ultimate efficiency would be discussed to have a view for next century.
S. Takada, Fuji

We will highlight desirable features for image-capture films optimized for digitization and the possibility of improved system performance over simply scanning traditional films. One such example is recording the scene with increased color accuracy through theoretically possible improvements in film spectral sensitivity, being applied to digital capture, that seem unachievable with conventional films for optical printing.
Sowinski et al., Kodak (this is marketed meanwhile)

ColorCode UnLtd. Corp. discloses a method for using analog Silver Halide film enabling it to become the media of choice for digital archival and entertainment in the 21st Cent. The method uses shades of gray (& colors) to store data in distributed, secure, machine readable, low cost, compacted formats, ideal for Internet uses. As do all known digital storage methods, the Patented technique processes all knowledge bases: text, data, images, sound, even olfactory and tactile signals. An expanded usefulness is that film not only stores the data digitally, but also imagely, generating a true HYBRID technology capturing images and sound both in their analog form, with also their contents in digital semi-analog form, all within one "Digi-Log" frame.
H. Shamir, Color Code (This idea seems to have vanished without a trace…)

Further, within the context of pictorial imaging, it appears that the silicon array as employed in the DSC is closer to its fundamental imaging efficiency limits than is AgX.
R. Szajewski, Kodak

Ryuji · May 8, 2007

AgX said:
Before looking into the future, let’s look back to the year 2000 and its promising ideas.
In the "2000 International Symposium on Silver Halide Imaging: Recent Advances and Future Opportunities in Silver Halide Imaging" you will find:

In the present paper, author will further discuss the recent activity in AgX technology which was adopted in high speed and high color fidelity photography… Finally a photographic mechanism to achieve an ultimate efficiency would be discussed to have a view for next century.
S. Takada, Fuji

Shunji Takada worked on a number of difficult and challenging problems at Fujifilm. Since early 90s he has been a project manager for a number of color films, color papers, instant films and many aspects of manufacturing process. He was also one of the main engineers who was involved in the development of Fujicolor HR-1600 film, which came out 2 years after Kodacolor VR-1000, the world's first 4-digit speed color film. He was also involved in other interesting emulsions, such as direct positive document films and high contrast emulsions containing hydrazine derivatives in the film itself.

One of his recent work was very fine grained AgCl color paper for scanning laser exposure (digital minilab).

Photo Engineer · May 8, 2007

AgX said:
Before looking into the future, lets look back to the year 2000 and its promising ideas.
In the "2000 International Symposium on Silver Halide Imaging: Recent Advances and Future Opportunities in Silver Halide Imaging" you will find:

In the present paper, author will further discuss the recent activity in AgX technology which was adopted in high speed and high color fidelity photography Finally a photographic mechanism to achieve an ultimate efficiency would be discussed to have a view for next century.
S. Takada, Fuji

We will highlight desirable features for image-capture films optimized for digitization and the possibility of improved system performance over simply scanning traditional films. One such example is recording the scene with increased color accuracy through theoretically possible improvements in film spectral sensitivity, being applied to digital capture, that seem unachievable with conventional films for optical printing.
Sowinski et al., Kodak (this is marketed meanwhile)

ColorCode UnLtd. Corp. discloses a method for using analog Silver Halide film enabling it to become the media of choice for digital archival and entertainment in the 21st Cent. The method uses shades of gray (& colors) to store data in distributed, secure, machine readable, low cost, compacted formats, ideal for Internet uses. As do all known digital storage methods, the Patented technique processes all knowledge bases: text, data, images, sound, even olfactory and tactile signals. An expanded usefulness is that film not only stores the data digitally, but also imagely, generating a true HYBRID technology capturing images and sound both in their analog form, with also their contents in digital semi-analog form, all within one "Digi-Log" frame.
H. Shamir, Color Code (This idea seems to have vanished without a trace)

Further, within the context of pictorial imaging, it appears that the silicon array as employed in the DSC is closer to its fundamental imaging efficiency limits than is AgX.
R. Szajewski, Kodak

At the International Congress of Imaging Science in Rochester in 2006 (ICIS) there was less than 10% of the membership devoted to analog imaging.

Everyone noted the huge decline in analog engineers represented and the big increase in digital engineers present. Some of the analog talks were cancelled and those that did go off as scheduled had rather low registration.

There were a lot of 'no show' speakers that simply did not appear at the speakers podium when they were called and many missing poster presentations. Most of these latter were from Europe or China.

The notable presentations in analog photography included the Tellurium sensitization by Fuji and the ISO 25,000 speed film by Paul Gilman. Along with that went the 2 electron sensitization by Kodak. Also at this symposium, Fuji introduced CA II color paper and couplers with a talk. Kodak had introduced the comparable product (Endura) at the ICIS meeting in Tokyo 4 years earlier.

There were, on average about 300 attendees with about 20 attending the various analog talks. This proportion is about correct regarding investment in the two sciences. I had a chance to discuss this with Tadeki Tani of Fuji as well as some of the Kodak managers present, and they seem to be in agreement with this ratio.

Therefore, nowithstanding the fact that research goes ahead, it is largely market driven. Without a niche in the market place, no product will be developed as the cost is too great. The best we can rely on is a trickle down effect starting with motion picture. This is indeed the course that is apparently being taken by Kodak at the present time.

PE

AgX · May 8, 2007

Thank you for that glimpse behind those congress doors!

AgX · May 8, 2007

Not to forget, most probably some speakers were made redundant between applying and that congress...

HerrBremerhaven · May 8, 2007

I don't think the movie trickle down is a bad thing at all. One thing I saw today that made me think film is important was a company developing yet another new machine to do transfer to film for motion pictures:

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This thing is $500k and does about three frames per second transfers to film. I could imagine how much film a company would need to run through one of these to justify the purchase price. Not to mention the cost of development for a new machine that uses film.

Movie technology trickle down does not sound bad at all. One of the new Vision films in one of my Nikon SLRs might be interesting.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>

Photo Engineer · May 8, 2007

Gordon;

I suspect that if you use one of the new Porta films you are using a Vision film readjusted for contrast for use as a still camera film.

PE

HerrBremerhaven · May 8, 2007

Interesting bit of information Ron. It would seem some trickle down would have already happened then. While I am not a big fan of colour negative films, I can imagine using them more often in the future. Thanks Ron.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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copake_ham · May 8, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Gordon;

I suspect that if you use one of the new Porta films you are using a Vision film readjusted for contrast for use as a still camera film.

PE

HerrBremerhaven said:
Interesting bit of information Ron. It would seem some trickle down would have already happened then. While I am not a big fan of colour negative films, I can imagine using them more often in the future. Thanks Ron.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
Dead Link Removed

There was a thread last week about the improved "scannability" of the new Porta.

Perhaps this is the "convergence" you're both alluding to?

HerrBremerhaven · May 9, 2007

Hello George,

That would be one aspect important for me to continue using film for work. Always good to have more choices, or more options. However, I still find it substantially easier to work with transparency films. Quite likely that if I was forced towards motion picture type films, I would add an extra step to reverse them for usage on a light table (getting a print off the negs).

The downside of all this would be using mostly 35mm sized films. I might hope for something larger, perhaps 70mm, though then film backs and processing might be even worse issues to solve.

Scanability improvements could extend the professional usage life of many film types. The easier films can fit into (some) professional workflows, the longer and more often they will continue to be used. Yes, some people use very different workflows, but I am not famous enough to force my clients into other choices; I am happy that they like my choice of using film.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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Photo Engineer · May 9, 2007

Since sheet films (LF and ULF) are coated on a different support than 120 and 35mm, there is also the consideration of Kodak still making the special support. The last I heard, Kodak is still casting their own at Kodak Park.

This sheet film support is thicker and has a roughened back to assist in retouching.

PE

HerrBremerhaven · May 9, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Since sheet films (LF and ULF) are coated on a different support than 120 and 35mm, there is also the consideration of Kodak still making the special support. The last I heard, Kodak is still casting their own at Kodak Park.

This sheet film support is thicker and has a roughened back to assist in retouching.

PE

That is about the best thing I have yet read on this thread. I heavily rely on 4x5 films for work, and I am even expanding upon the types of work I shoot on 4x5. While I still use 35mm and 120 roll films and cameras, I have cut back a little on smaller camera usage. Thanks Ron.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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AgX · May 9, 2007

Gordon,
the hybride way, or scannability seems an issue to all manufacturers, especially in the industrial range. Think also of the two maskless Agfa aerofilms (one obtainable in 70mm) which are stated to be designed for scanning.

Future technological developments of films

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