Full frame neg carriers for 4x5?

PKM-25 · May 5, 2012

I did three searches on this, came up empty handed...

When I use my Anti-Newton glass neg carrier for 4x5, it crops into quite a bit past the frame edge, slightly less using the Negaflat carrier, on a Beseler 45MXT.

Other than buying another glass carrier, filing it out and getting Focal Point to make some custom glass, what are my options for getting closer to if not all the neg represented in when printing from 4x5 negs?

Bill Burk · May 5, 2012

I print full-frame 4x5 in a glassless carrier in Omega DII that I cut away with a jeweler's saw.

I would think you could "just" get a couple pieces of glass and mask off the excess with black paper.

Chuck_P · May 5, 2012

Bill Burk said:
I print full-frame 4x5 in a glassless carrier in Omega DII that I cut away with a jeweler's saw.

I would think you could "just" get a couple pieces of glass and mask off the excess with black paper.

I want to print full-frame with my LPL 4550, but I can't bring myself to start filing and messing with it---anyway, I don't see how I could even do that with the glassless carrier that I have, the negative would just fall through if I filed away the small lip edge that the negative rests on.

Bill Burk · May 5, 2012

CPorter said:
I want to print full-frame with my LPL 4550, but I can't bring myself to start filing and messing with it---anyway, I don't see how I could even do that with the glassless carrier that I have, the negative would just fall through if I filed away the small lip edge that the negative rests on.

It is not falling through for me. I measured my 4x5 film carefully (3.918 x 4.925) and cut the opening equally so that about 3/64 inches actual film is held on all four sides.

Mark Crabtree · May 5, 2012

I cut out my glassless carrier to get the full image area, minus the clear part of the neg obstructed by the rails in the film holder. I think I used a Dremel, then finished with a file and sandpaper. I would tape the neg to the carrier putting a bit of tension on it to keep it flat. The worst was that I then found out the opening above the negative carrier on my Omega D5 was causing a little vignetting. That took a couple more runs with the Dremel. And now I don't even use that enlarger anymore except for proof sheets.

I did make a 5x7 conversion a while back on a Durst L1000 and made a frame that held two plain pieces of glass. I masked those down to exactly the size of the full 5x7 negative and so could print the entire thing. The tape had the added bonus of adding just enough separation to prevent newton rings. That would be equally practical for 4x5 of course.

Michael Finder · May 6, 2012

I use two sheets of glass in a Durst 5x7 enlarger so I can full frame print Type 55 Polaroid Positive Negative Film showing all the edges. Perhaps you can fashion your own glass sheet negative carrier for your enlarger. With 35mm I filed out the neg. holder on my LPL/Saunders so I am able to print the black edges around the negative. Cheers Michael.

PKM-25 · May 6, 2012

I kind of figured, it won't be too hard, I have filed out two neg carriers without incident thus far...

ic-racer · May 6, 2012

The Beseler light source may not cover any more than what the original carrier shows. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

PKM-25 · May 7, 2012

ic-racer said:
The Beseler light source may not cover any more than what the original carrier shows. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I'm using an Aristo V54 Cold Light head, I suspect it will be fine..

ic-racer · May 7, 2012

PKM-25 said:
I'm using an Aristo V54 Cold Light head, I suspect it will be fine..

Like the solution in that link, I have also made a nice glass 35mm carrier with two pieces of glass and a tape hinge. Depending on how the Beseler accepts the carrier, it may work fine. The one I made was for an enlarger that slides the head up and down and the head rests on the glass to compress it (with some foam rubber in between).

PKM-25 · Jul 20, 2012

Well, I got it figured out. I ordered some AN glass from Focalpoint, took my glassless carrier, removed the top, drilled a bunch of holes to perforate where I wanted the metal to be broken off and then bent it off. Then, as I started filing away at it to get rid of the jagged edges, I noticed a pattern that I actually kind of liked. So not only can I print the entire frame including the notch code, I have a "Postage Stamp" look for when I want to really bring something fresh to a series, like portraits...

By the way, I am blown away by how easy it is to make superb prints from 4x5 compared to smaller formats, it feels almost like cheating..

I'd love to show it to you, but I can not get any size attachment to load...

Bill Burk · Jul 20, 2012

Welcome to the world of black borders, warts and all!

Be sure to throw a small bubble level in with your camera gear. You can't hide a crooked shot any longer. No more cropping.

You also can't do flashing "a-la Lootens" to blacken distracting backgrounds. This, I am sorry, is the gravest loss - I just cannot figure out a workaround.

PKM-25 · Jul 20, 2012

Bill Burk said:
You also can't do flashing "a-la Lootens" to blacken distracting backgrounds. This, I am sorry, is the gravest loss - I just cannot figure out a workaround.

If you would not mind, please elaborate...I am not clear what you mean..

Also, the main thrust of the new improved carrier is so I have all the decision in cropping, I bet in practice I rarely go the full neg. route...

Bill Burk · Jul 20, 2012

PKM-25 said:
If you would not mind, please elaborate...I am not clear what you mean..

Also, the main thrust of the new improved carrier is so I have all the decision in cropping, I bet in practice I rarely go the full neg. route...

An old book "Lootens on Enlarging" describes the pictorial darkening of the corners of your prints. Say you took a portrait and the upper-left corner the frame holding the drop cloth shows. With flashing, you darken the upper left corner with maybe 5 seconds of light from an 8-watt bulb as you shield the rest of the print with cardboard. It's like burning but without a negative. No additional detail, it obliterates and plunges that corner of the print to black.

Printing full frame has been done before, so people have gotten tired of it before... I prefer it though I concede it is neither the best route to go nor something anybody should do without thinking it through.

ic-racer · Jul 20, 2012

PKM-25 said:
By the way, I am blown away by how easy it is to make superb prints from 4x5 compared to smaller formats, it feels almost like cheating..
.

EXACTLY! And 8x10 is even easier! The smaller formats are progressively more tedious to print well. 35mm being the most challenging. Amazing how so many people jump right in the deep end (35mm) without progressing through the easy to print formats first

Leigh B · Jul 21, 2012

Frame your images in-camera appropriately for your processing and you won't have a problem.

No problem = no solution required.

- Leigh

PKM-25 · Dec 23, 2012

So I have done two 20x24 prints with the glass carrier with Focal Point AN glass and I am still getting newton rings...WTH?

ic-racer · Dec 23, 2012

PKM-25 said:
So I have done two 20x24 prints with the glass carrier with Focal Point AN glass and I am still getting newton rings...WTH?

You have checked all the obvious things like correct orientation of the glass etc? Do you have two AN pieces or just one?

PKM-25 · Dec 23, 2012

ic-racer said:
You have checked all the obvious things like correct orientation of the glass etc? Do you have two AN pieces or just one?

Yep, done by the book, AN on top, regular on bottom...

erikg · Dec 23, 2012

Bill Burk said:
Welcome to the world of black borders, warts and all!

Be sure to throw a small bubble level in with your camera gear. You can't hide a crooked shot any longer. No more cropping.

You also can't do flashing "a-la Lootens" to blacken distracting backgrounds. This, I am sorry, is the gravest loss - I just cannot figure out a workaround.

I don't see the problem regarding flashing except for a ragged 35mm style black border. I've used a pen flashlight doing what you describe.

Mark Crabtree · Dec 23, 2012

I don't know the design of your carrier, but if there is room in there, a thickness of tape or two will take the pressure off. I made my 5x7 carrier that way. I laid a negative on the glass and taped around the border with black photographic tape. I can't recall, but imagine it was two thicknesses. This made the negative very easy to position, and prevented newton rings even with my plain glass.

I don't know if your problem might be on the emulsion side; it seems like I had just one film type that had that issue.

Patrick Robert James · Dec 23, 2012

What film? T-Max?

PKM-25 · Dec 23, 2012

Patrick Robert James said:
What film? T-Max?

Yep, Tmax 100 which has a pretty stiff base. Have not tried Delta or Tmax 400 yet...

TMX-100 dries so amazingly flat, I bet I very well *could* just tape it to the single glass. I might revisit and file out a bit of my regular glassless carrier, not a fan of the marks the negaflat leaves in the image area.

PKM-25 · Dec 23, 2012

This makes so much sense now, I did not see them at 11x14 in a complex scene and the 12"x24" prints I made that looked perfect were from 6x12 Pan-F, a dull surface.

I looked again at my Negaflat carrier and it really does not crop as much as I thought and could even be filed out a bit if we're feeling anal about it and it does hold Tmax super flat. Still not a fan of the bite marks, but they are right at the frame edge, so that might be the ticket for Tmax films...

Bill Burk · Dec 24, 2012

erikg said:
I don't see the problem regarding flashing except for a ragged 35mm style black border. I've used a pen flashlight doing what you describe.

The problem I have not solved is how to accomplish flashing (as you do with a pen flashlight) when my paper is not shielded by the blades of the easel.

I have the easel blades set about 1/4 inch all around. My enlarged image area is slightly inside. The black border from my filed negative carriers outline my images, it is like the ragged 35mm style black border. The easel doesn't usually mask any edges (but sometimes just an accidental touch).

So if I used a pen flashlight, the black would "bleed" outside my printed black border.

You've solved this problem?

Full frame neg carriers for 4x5?

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