Fujichrome 8x10 color slide film as B&W film transparency?

James Drukeli · Feb 28, 2019

I'm trying to make an etching plate from a black and white drawing which requires a film positive to burn the plate.

Since they no longer make 8x10 black and white slide film, is it possible to take a photo of the illustration using 8x10 color slide film (since the illustration is only black charcoal on white paper) and then use it to burn the plate?

devb · Feb 28, 2019

I don't see why it wouldn't work if the densities are the right value for your process. You could also save a ton of money and buy black and white film and either process it as a transparency or process it as a negative and then contact print it onto another sheet of film for a positive image.

devb · Feb 28, 2019

I have to add, since it's not clear: if you develop a slide film in a normal black and white process, it will come out as a negative.

James Drukeli · Feb 28, 2019

Thanks for the replies dev, I'm though it would be easier shooting on the color slide film than having to reverse a negative or contact print it. My theory is that it would be easier to get a high quality print this way if it does indeed work.

koraks · Mar 1, 2019

It will be exactly the same amount of work developing slide film to a positive or reversal processing a b&w negative. Personally I'd just use regular b&w film or even xray film.

Lachlan Young · Mar 1, 2019

James Drukeli said:
I'm trying to make an etching plate from a black and white drawing which requires a film positive to burn the plate.

Since they no longer make 8x10 black and white slide film, is it possible to take a photo of the illustration using 8x10 color slide film (since the illustration is only black charcoal on white paper) and then use it to burn the plate?

Easiest would be to reversal process a BW negative film. However, the real way positives were made for gravure was to take a negative & print it to a negative working film making a positive - much easier to control the contrast to what was needed. Kodak 4135 Gravure Positive was pretty similar to Ilford Ortho plus - major difference is that 4135 was largely blue sensitive as opposed to blue & green sensitive.

James Drukeli · Mar 1, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
Easiest would be to reversal process a BW negative film. However, the real way positives were made for gravure was to take a negative & print it to a negative working film making a positive - much easier to control the contrast to what was needed. Kodak 4135 Gravure Positive was pretty similar to Ilford Ortho plus - major difference is that 4135 was largely blue sensitive as opposed to blue & green sensitive.

Good to know. How exactly would I "print it to a negative working film?" If you have a tutorial you could point me to that would be much appreciated. Also what are good modern 8x10 films to use while doing this?

Lachlan Young · Mar 1, 2019

James Drukeli said:
Good to know. How exactly would I "print it to a negative working film?" If you have a tutorial you could point me to that would be much appreciated. Also what are good modern 8x10 films to use while doing this?

Any medium contrast film will do - the main reason for Ortho plus is that it can be handled under a dark red safelight & can be developed to a wide range of contrasts. FP4+ would be fine too - avoid TMX because of the UV blocker component (a pity because it would otherwise be very good). Obviously you'll need to work in total darkness for the panchro films.

How to print with the film? Very simply. Treat it as if you were printing on paper - main difference is to put a piece of black card/ paper under the film to kill reflections off the easel/ contact printer. You also will need to expose the film through the back to make sure that the image is the right way round when you eventually expose emulsion to emulsion with the carbon tissue resist.

Final thing: process controls - you should be exposing a step wedge (eg a Stouffer) alongside the films at each stage so that you can analyse the effective exposure scale if the materials & the alterations needed to optimise tonal reproduction. Getting your contrast right (and controllable) is the hardest part of the whole procedure.

James Drukeli · Mar 1, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
Any medium contrast film will do - the main reason for Ortho plus is that it can be handled under a dark red safelight & can be developed to a wide range of contrasts. FP4+ would be fine too - avoid TMX because of the UV blocker component (a pity because it would otherwise be very good). Obviously you'll need to work in total darkness for the panchro films.

How to print with the film? Very simply. Treat it as if you were printing on paper - main difference is to put a piece of black card/ paper under the film to kill reflections off the easel/ contact printer. You also will need to expose the film through the back to make sure that the image is the right way round when you eventually expose emulsion to emulsion with the carbon tissue resist.

Final thing: process controls - you should be exposing a step wedge (eg a Stouffer) alongside the films at each stage so that you can analyse the effective exposure scale if the materials & the alterations needed to optimise tonal reproduction. Getting your contrast right (and controllable) is the hardest part of the whole procedure.

Thanks. Are there any advantages to doing things this way over simply reversing the negative?

Lachlan Young · Mar 1, 2019

James Drukeli said:
Thanks. Are there any advantages to doing things this way over simply reversing the negative?

Mostly to do with vastly greater contrast control in this case - there are other reasons, but I think they're relatively irrelevant to this specific situation. It's also rather less complicated in terms of processing stages, potentially unpleasant chemistry etc.

koraks · Mar 1, 2019

Yes, the route with an internegative is in my experience much easier to control in terms of contrast.

James Drukeli · Mar 1, 2019

Lachlan Young said:
Mostly to do with vastly greater contrast control in this case - there are other reasons, but I think they're relatively irrelevant to this specific situation. It's also rather less complicated in terms of processing stages, potentially unpleasant chemistry etc.

Okay so does this diagram accurately represent the layout? https://imgur.com/qUsfh1F

I heard that using a dense film is best? How do I determine how dense a particular film is?

Which method will achieve the highest level of detail: reversal or contact printing on film?

Is this film okay to use Fuji Super HR-T Medium Speed Green 8x10 x-ray film?

Also I will be using a bare light bulb as I do not have an enlarger.

Lachlan Young · Mar 2, 2019

James Drukeli said:
Okay so does this diagram accurately represent the layout? https://imgur.com/qUsfh1F

I heard that using a dense film is best? How do I determine how dense a particular film is?

Which method will achieve the highest level of detail: reversal or contact printing on film?

Is this film okay to use Fuji Super HR-T Medium Speed Green 8x10 x-ray film?

Also I will be using a bare light bulb as I do not have an enlarger.

The diagram is almost correct - the exposure should be through the back of the film you are printing to, not emulsion to emulsion as you would use if contacting to paper - this is so that when you expose the carbon tissue and the positive emulsion to emulsion, everything should end up the right way round - it'll be pretty obvious pretty fast if you get it right or wrong!

Neg/pos will always give better results than pos/pos - and there's maths that explains it. Lots of discussion about this elsewhere on Photrio - and the massive benefits of neg/pos is why it became the dominant means of origination & distribution in cinema.

And nothing wrong with a point source - as long as it is controllable in output - the films used are faster than papers.

Regarding the rest, the book 'Copper Plate Photogravure: Demystifying the Process' by Morrish and MacCallum would be a good place to start from - obviously in the interceding decade and a half, materials have changed, but the techniques are what you need.

James Drukeli · Mar 2, 2019

TH

Lachlan Young said:
The diagram is almost correct - the exposure should be through the back of the film you are printing to, not emulsion to emulsion as you would use if contacting to paper - this is so that when you expose the carbon tissue and the positive emulsion to emulsion, everything should end up the right way round - it'll be pretty obvious pretty fast if you get it right or wrong!

Neg/pos will always give better results than pos/pos - and there's maths that explains it. Lots of discussion about this elsewhere on Photrio - and the massive benefits of neg/pos is why it became the dominant means of origination & distribution in cinema.

And nothing wrong with a point source - as long as it is controllable in output - the films used are faster than papers.

Regarding the rest, the book 'Copper Plate Photogravure: Demystifying the Process' by Morrish and MacCallum would be a good place to start from - obviously in the interceding decade and a half, materials have changed, but the techniques are what you need.

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions. I just purchased a digital copy of that book.

Sorry to ask another question but "neg/pos" is that referring to the reversing a negative or contact printing negative film to a positive? A little confused 'cause pos/pos didn't sound like either of these two processes to me.

lantau · Mar 2, 2019

James Drukeli said:
TH

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions. I just purchased a digital copy of that book.

Sorry to ask another question but "neg/pos" is that referring to the reversing a negative or contact printing negative film to a positive? A little confused 'cause pos/pos didn't sound like either of these two processes to me.

Neg/Pos means printing a positive from a negative. The process for b/w and colour print films. Pos/Pos is making a positive from another positive, usually from slide film. A photocopier is also a Pos/Pos process.

Edit:

At least looking at it from the outside. I'm not sure if the Xerox process is a pos/neg/pos process, technically. I think there is an electrostatically charged drum involved which could count as an internegative.

koraks · Mar 2, 2019

There are two variants to the Xerox system, so you're right either way

John51 · Mar 5, 2019

James Drukeli said:
I'm trying to make an etching plate from a black and white drawing which requires a film positive to burn the plate.

Since they no longer make 8x10 black and white slide film, is it possible to take a photo of the illustration using 8x10 color slide film (since the illustration is only black charcoal on white paper) and then use it to burn the plate?

Does it have to be film?

Many processes use digi files printed onto mylar.

Not trying to be a heretic, just wanting to understand why an inkjet printed positive wouldn't work.

Fujichrome 8x10 color slide film as B&W film transparency?

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Fujichrome 8x10 color slide film as B&W film transparency?

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