Fuji X Press 5L C41 info sheet

Hi. This looks like the right forum for me. First post here.

Ive been looking all over the internet and I can't find a technical info sheet for the Fuji C41 X press 5L kit. Im trying to figure out if the capacity of the developer is the same as the Kodak kit or not.

Especially, I'm trying to figure out the minimum amount of developer for a 4x5" sheet (ca 0.4 rolls of 35 mm 36ep.)

is 33ml / 4x5 reasonable?

ScandiPhoto said:

Especially, I'm trying to figure out the minimum amount of developer for a 4x5" sheet (ca 0.4 rolls of 35 mm 36ep.)

is 33ml / 4x5 reasonable?

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4x 4x5 is ca. a roll of 136/36 or 120. This would make your volume of 33ml equivalent to ca. 125ml per roll, or a capacity of 8 rolls per liter. This is a reasonable guess.

Welcome to photrio!

PS: given the cost of 4x5" C41 film these days, I wouldn't economize on chemistry.

True. I will do fresh developer.

brbo said:

Fuji Hunt C41 X-Press Kit Instructions

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That one I also found. Not really readable..

koraks said:

4x 4x5 is ca. a roll of 136/36 or 120. This would make your volume of 33ml equivalent to ca. 125ml per roll, or a capacity of 8 rolls per liter. This is a reasonable guess.

Welcome to photrio!

PS: given the cost of 4x5" C41 film these days, I wouldn't economize on chemistry.

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That's what I figured as well. So I'll do 500 ml for 10 sheets (3010 drum). Easy to count.

For anyone googling developer times. I was in contact with Bellini about the 1L C41 Color Negative Kit.

They approved this table for reusing 1L of developer in a 3010 Jobo drum.

3010 drum	equal in 35mm	4x5 sheets	time
1st drum	4	10	3:15
2nd	8	10	3:30
3rd	12	10	3:45
4th	16	10	4:0

Its within the limits of the developer, and I could manage more according to them.

But personally I will use fresh developer for each batch and use less developer instead of a full litre.

ScandiPhoto said:

That one I also found. Not really readable..

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I can read everything that is relevant just fine, but if you still haven't found a better scan of the instruction, I can scan my copy of the instructions that came with the box and I've saved (which it's not exactly high quality either).

ScandiPhoto said:

For anyone googling developer times. I was in contact with Bellini about the 1L C41 Color Negative Kit.

They approved this table for reusing 1L of developer in a 3010 Jobo drum.

3010 drum	equal in 35mm	4x5 sheets	time
1st drum	4	10	3:15
2nd	8	10	3:30
3rd	12	10	3:45
4th	16	10	4:0

Its within the limits of the developer, and I could manage more according to them.

But personally I will use fresh developer for each batch and use less developer instead of a full litre.

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I think using fresh developer or (if you very frequently develop c41) using some kind of replenished system would be a better option.
I really have very severe doubts that the film from batch 4 will come out looking very close to batch 1. This can (will) be a problem if you're making a series within which you need good consistency. It may be fine if you shoot single frames and optimize color balance (esp. digitally) on a frame-by-frame basis.

Btw, I think the math is odd w.r.t. to the sheets/rolls equivalents, if I read the table correctly. 10 sheets 4x5 = ca. 2.5 rolls of 135/36. After all, 4 sheets 4x5 = 1 sheet of 8x10, which roughly equals 1 roll 135/36. It would be more or less correct if the '35mm' refers to 24-frame rolls.

koraks said:

I think using fresh developer or (if you very frequently develop c41) using some kind of replenished system would be a better option.
I really have very severe doubts that the film from batch 4 will come out looking very close to batch 1. This can (will) be a problem if you're making a series within which you need good consistency. It may be fine if you shoot single frames and optimize color balance (esp. digitally) on a frame-by-frame basis.

Btw, I think the math is odd w.r.t. to the sheets/rolls equivalents, if I read the table correctly. 10 sheets 4x5 = ca. 2.5 rolls of 135/36. After all, 4 sheets 4x5 = 1 sheet of 8x10, which roughly equals 1 roll 135/36. It would be more or less correct if the '35mm' refers to 24-frame rolls.

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I also have my doubts. Thats why I sent that table to the Bellini support to ask if those calculations were correct. And they confirmed that it is well within the margins of the developer. I have. not tried it, so I can't say if it works of not. Anyway. I will as suggested use fresh developer. A replenish method is of course better, but difficult when doing the small amount of film I will do.

About the math, its based on 10*4x5s = ruffly 4 rolls of 36 exp 35mm film.

So far I have found the 5L fuji to be the best solution for my Jobo. Using the minimum amount of developer + some. That would give me:

33cl / 4x5 sheet (unconfirmed required amount) for Fuji.

That would make for 330 ml / drum (10 sheets) * 15 = 150 sheets, 1L or 15 drums.

But being more conservative using 500 ml developer.

500ml / drum (10 sheets) x 10 = 100 sheets, 5L.



And with the Bellini 1 L kit, it's good for 44 Sheets according to the spec.
That would then be 22 cl / sheet * 10 = 220 (have to add developer to reach minimum drum requirements.

So lets say 250ml fresh Bellini developer I could theoretically do 4 drums = 40 sheets.

Cost

Bellini 1L - 40 sheets / 50 EUR = 0.8 EUR / sheet (0.92 USD)
Fuji 5L 100 sheets / 110 Eur = 0.9 Eur /sheet (1.04 USD)

ScandiPhoto said:

About the math, its based on 10*4x5s = ruffly 4 rolls of 36 exp 35mm film.

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Yes, I see. That math is not correct in my view.
1 sheet of 8x10 roughly equals 1 roll of 135/36. If you have ever contact printed a roll of 135/36 onto a sheet of 8x10" you'll recognize this. So 4x 4x5" = ca. 1x 135/36. 10x 4x5 = ca. 2.5 rolls of 135/36.

koraks said:

Yes, I see. That math is not correct in my view.
1 sheet of 8x10 roughly equals 1 roll of 135/36. If you have ever contact printed a roll of 135/36 onto a sheet of 8x10" you'll recognize this. So 4x 4x5" = ca. 1x 135/36. 10x 4x5 = ca. 2.5 rolls of 135/36.

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Ok. I can't argue on that logic, but a lot of online sources says otherwise.

But anyway, the recommended times for the Bellini should be ok according to them. I asked specifically for the 4x5s. And the minimum developer amount is based on the stated maximum amount of 4x5s possible (44) in the spec.

That's actually why I asked for a Fuji 5L spec to begin with. To find the theoretically minimum amount of developer per 4x5 sheet of film.

ScandiPhoto said:

Ok. I can't argue on that logic, but a lot of online sources says otherwise.

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I'd be interested to hear about these sources.

A 35mm frame is nominally 24x36mm, but the film width is a nominal 35mm. Allowing for some frame spacing, each frame is approx. 37x35mm, or ca. 13cm2. 36 frames is thus ca. 470cm2. This excludes the leading and trailing bits of the film; the total will be somewhere in the vicinity of 500cm2 (actually a bit more, but not all that much and for the developer and the bleach, it's only the exposed leader that counts - it's different for the fix, but we're in splitting hairs territory by now).
8x10" = ca. 20x25cm = also ca. 500cm2.

ScandiPhoto said:

And the minimum developer amount is based on the stated maximum amount of 4x5s possible (44) in the spec.

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The capacity of the chemistry is a complex issue. Developer goes through a couple of changes as it's used. This makes it difficult to reach conclusions about x number of sheets/rolls across y number of sessions based on a single number for the capacity (z rolls/sheets per liter). The problem is among others in the buildup of halides in the developer which will affect the developer in a non-linear way; i.e. you can't compensate for it just by developing longer. This compensation only works to an extent; it does not result in the same curve shape or color balance. You can end up with roughly the same contrast - but there will be qualitative differences.

ScandiPhoto said:

I also have my doubts. Thats why I sent that table to the Bellini support to ask if those calculations were correct. And they confirmed that it is well within the margins of the developer.

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Excuse me, how do you contact Bellini and how quickly do they respond?
Forgive me for going off-topic, please.
I sent them a message using the contact form on their website.

I very politely inquired about the BLEACH baths from their C-41 and ECN2 kits.
I asked if the BLEACH ECN2 bath is based on potassium ferricyanide (rather unlikely) or on PDTA or iron EDTA.
I also asked why they recommend disposing of the entire kit (not just the developer) after two weeks of mixing.
After all, bleach, regardless of its chemical composition, should have a much longer shelf life.

I also mentioned that I was their customer because I had both their kits (C-41 and ECN2) unopened.

I sent the message on November 18th, a week ago.
I immediately received an automatic email reply stating that they had received my request.
To date, I haven't received a response from them. I check the SPAM folder - there's nothing there.

I'm starting to feel like I've had a bad experience with this company.
Bellini doesn't provide any information about the chemical ingredients of their baths in the SDSs for either the C-41 or ECN2 kits.
It's as if it were some kind of manufacturer secret.

The same is true for the Italian company Axel Color. They don't publish SDSs for their C-41 kit for Newbies anywhere.
They don't respond to emails. I've been waiting for a response since June.
I feel truly ignored.

Spektrum said:

I sent the message on November 18th, a week ago.

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Only a week. People are busy, especially at the end of the year, and this is not a company with a huge customer support department. Give it some time.

You're absolutely right, but from @ScandiPhoto statement, I could conclude that he's in real-time contact with Bellini, meaning they respond to his inquiries quickly.
Perhaps my attitude is negative. I need to work on that.

Spektrum said:

You're absolutely right, but from @ScandiPhoto statement, I could conclude that he's in real-time contact with Bellini, meaning they respond to his inquiries quickly.
Perhaps my attitude is negative. I need to work on that.

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I just dropped them a email (info@) and got response after 2 hr. Very fast, but it began with me pointing out a type on the technical documents on there webpage, said 4 sheets, should have been 44 sheets. So maybe that's why

koraks said:

I'd be interested to hear about these sources.

A 35mm frame is nominally 24x36mm, but the film width is a nominal 35mm. Allowing for some frame spacing, each frame is approx. 37x35mm, or ca. 13cm2. 36 frames is thus ca. 470cm2. This excludes the leading and trailing bits of the film; the total will be somewhere in the vicinity of 500cm2 (actually a bit more, but not all that much and for the developer and the bleach, it's only the exposed leader that counts - it's different for the fix, but we're in splitting hairs territory by now).
8x10" = ca. 20x25cm = also ca. 500cm2.

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I totally Surender. Not sure where my numbers came from, but I was quite sure about it. Until proven otherwise. Thanks for enlighten me, Ill start counting 10 sheets = 2.5 rolls. Please discard everything Ive written so far.

koraks said:

but there will be qualitative differences.

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Agree, better to use fresh developer, or replenish like you stated above. Still, its relevant for people who want to use the kit to its maximum.

The Bellini table would then be. And it makes sense, since the Bellini's approved for 12 rolls of film or 44 sheets according to the spec. So within 2 rolls of its maximum processing abilities.

3010 drum	Equal in 35 mm	4x5" s	Time
1st	2.5	10	3:15
2nd	5	10	3:30
3rd	7.5	10	3:45
4th	10	10	4:0

The rest would then be:

Kit	Fluid / 4x5"s	Max 4x5"	Retail price / sheet = price
Fuji 5L Xpress	5000/240= 20.83 ml	96 /rolls)*2,5 = 240 sheets	110/240=0.458
Bellkini 1 L kit	1000/44=22.727 ml	44 Sheets	50/44=1.113 EUR

All these numbers are a bit pointless and theoretical but the Fuji is cheeper / sheet. Both requires ruffly the same amount of developer but price per ml is 3 times higher with the Bellini.

ScandiPhoto said:

I just dropped them a email (info@) and got response after 2 hr.

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I just received a reply from Filippo. He's a very kind and helpful guy.
Just as @koraks wrote, Filippo apologized for the delay in responding and explained that I had asked a lot of technical questions that he had to consult with specialists. It's a busy shopping season and they're having trouble responding quickly.

Since Filippo's answers are interesting, I will create a new thread and write more information in it so that other users can benefit from it.

Thanks guys for reporting back, both @ScandiPhoto and @Spektrum ! Both of your comments make sense and @Spektrum thanks for sharing your findings with the community!