fuji gw690 - first frame irregularities

r u t h · Mar 13, 2020

hello all,

i just developed 12 rolls from my fuji gw690. on a few of the rolls, i noticed that the first frame was slightly darker on the right third of the image. the difference occurs along a very straight horizontal line. the difference between them is not substantial, maybe a 1/2 stop, but it is noticeable and i suspect will complicate printing. i thought that i perhaps left the tail of the film too lax on the reel, but this seems to be a consistent mark across four of the rolls.

does anyone have insight into what might cause this? i can't imagine a leaf shutter causing an even horizontal line, nor can i that i am making such a consistent error in development. could this be from loading? three of the affected rolls were from very sunny hawaiian weather.

thank you!

r u t h · Mar 13, 2020

Dan Daniel · Mar 14, 2020

Is that line in the same place on each roll?

Strange that you would get fogging like that with such a clean line. Can't quite imagine how this is from the camera itself since that area would be well protected by paper when the back is closed.

Ariston · Mar 14, 2020

Man, that's weird. Such a sharp line, I don't know how it could be from a lax reel at any point (loading, etc,). It goes to the borders (beyond the frame), so it's not from the lens or shutter. Are the rolls from the same batch? I've never seen any issues from Ilford, but maybe this is from the factory. I just don't know. I'm curious to near others' ideas.

r u t h · Mar 14, 2020

they're all in the same place. i know ilford has had a couple of recent batches with spots and uneven emulsion, but i don't think that's what happened here.i am using a paterson 3 tank to do the rolls two at a time and think that the affected rolls were all on the top.

i am just at a total loss for what could have caused this. it cuts across the border of the film too, so maybe it was stray light or some sort of reflection while loading the film.

choiliefan · Mar 14, 2020

Are you loading the camera in subdued light?
This is strange.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 14, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Is that line in the same place on each roll?

Strange that you would get fogging like that with such a clean line. Can't quite imagine how this is from the camera itself since that area would be well protected by paper when the back is closed.

any chance this is exactly how deep the film fits in the processing liquids when in the development tank?

r u t h · Mar 14, 2020

these rolls were shot in hawaii, so it was exceptionally bright

i don't think it could be developer level because i am keeping the tank upright and add an extra 50ml of liquid. if it were liquid level, then i think the line would be horizontal

warden · Mar 14, 2020

r u t h said:
these rolls were shot in hawaii, so it was exceptionally bright

Were you standing in the sunlight when you loaded the camera? The only thing I can think of is light getting on that first frame as the camera is loaded somehow.

I think it's unlikely that this is an Ilford problem because the leak is on the first image only and not on all of your exposed rolls. Were all the rolls you shot from the same manufacturing batch?

Ariston · Mar 14, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
any chance this is exactly how deep the film fits in the processing liquids when in the development tank?

On a reel, that kind of problem would be horizontal I think.

Ariston · Mar 14, 2020

Any kind of light leak would require a mask on the front frame to make a straight line like that as far as I know. So none of the light leak explanations make sense to me.

Unless the film was partially wound on, and the shutter wasn't closed all the way, fogging half the first frame...? But that would not explain why it is fogged to the edges.

moto-uno · Mar 14, 2020

Is it possible that on those rolls you left the last half of those frames outside the film reel and they were touching during development ? Peter

r u t h · Mar 14, 2020

moto-uno said:
Is it possible that on those rolls you left the last half of those frames outside the film reel and they were touching during development ? Peter

i thought about this too, but the development in the darker area seems even otherwise. usually when i have had reel mishaps, there is some sort of splotchy uneven spot where film touches film an undeveloped tail touching the reel.

Dan Daniel · Mar 14, 2020

Question- does the slightly darker area seen in the sample image above extend all the way to the beginning of the film?

And to confirm, the location of the beginning of the dark area is always the same, or very very close?

Any chance that this is fogging from undoing the tape? I know it gives off visible sparks (or used to; I've used a changing bag, not a changing room for a long time now so haven't see one way or another). You would need to be undoing the tape, of course, not just ripping it.

reddesert · Mar 14, 2020

That is very strange. The photo is very informative, thanks for posting it. I agree that it can't be from the lens or shutter because the line is very sharply defined and runs into the rebate.

Light leaks in-camera tend to be rather fuzzy and not so sharp edged.

A loading light leak that affects only the beginning of a 120 roll would have to occur at loading, not at unloading, and again seems unlikely it would be so sharp edged.

Could it be happening during development? Are you loading the film onto the reels starting with the first exposure, or the last exposure? If you load the reel starting from the first exposure, then the first exposure winds up at the center of the spiral and could be vulnerable to a light leak through the center of the tank. The outer spirals will be shielded by the inner spiral of film.

I mention this also because you said that the affected rolls are at the top of each tank. You probably know this - it is critical to use the center column of the Paterson tank that the reels slide onto, otherwise light can get in through the fill hole. Check that the center column is fitting properly and that the tank is closing correctly?

Ariston · Mar 14, 2020

Does anyone think a sharp line like this can be caused by a light leak absent some kind of masking from the camera or other device? That should really narrow it down. I am not convinced that this didn't happen at the factory.

You should email Ilford a copy of that pic and see what they think.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 15, 2020

Ariston said:
On a reel, that kind of problem would be horizontal I think.

But it is horizontal!

Ian C · Mar 15, 2020

I’d try a couple of rolls of fresh film of a different brand: Kodak or Fuji. If the problem appears on a different film brand, then I believe that it must be camera related. If not, then it suggests—but does not prove—that the problem was film related.

warden · Mar 15, 2020

I agree with Ian's suggestion of trying any other non-Ilford film. At the very least seeing the problem on a Kodak roll will remove the film as a variable, and move the focus (pardon the pun) to film loading, exposure, unloading, and developing.

itsdoable · Mar 15, 2020

r u t h said:
they're all in the same place. ....i am using a paterson 3 tank to do the rolls two at a time and think that the affected rolls were all on the top....

reddesert said:
...I mention this also because you said that the affected rolls are at the top of each tank. You probably know this - it is critical to use the center column of the Paterson tank that the reels slide onto, otherwise light can get in through the fill hole. Check that the center column is fitting properly and that the tank is closing correctly?

It does look like the shadow of the film as it wraps around the center of the reel when you forget to insert he black center column in a Patterson tank - ask me why I know? However, the fogging usually has a gradient from top to bottom, but since you are only using 2 reels in a 3-reel tank, it may be less apparent? If you re-load the film onto the reel, you can check to see if that shadow lines up with the start of the film.

r u t h · Mar 15, 2020

thank you everyone for the help.

i definitely had the center column in, the lid locked, checked the changing bag etc. my instinct is that this is a problem on ilford's production end. the marks are too consistent and come from the same batch of film. i developed 10 more rolls of ilford without changing anything and one had the same mark, but all the foma rolls from the same trip were perfectly fine. thankfully i didn't lose any amazing shots. the two tone is actually kind of cool on my test print and the line is even enough to correct easily for a normal print.

i am very relieved that my workhorse camera is not the problem.

toyotadesigner · Mar 24, 2020

The leader of the backing paper might have been too long, hence the sharp vertical line. Because it is not as dark as the pressure plate, it might have reflected some light back onto the emulsion and thus exposed that part a bit more. I've experience this with slide film long time ago in one single batch of film.

Huss · Mar 24, 2020

I am looking forward to seeing your pics from Hawaii.

Donald Qualls · Mar 29, 2020

toyotadesigner said:
The leader of the backing paper might have been too long, hence the sharp vertical line. Because it is not as dark as the pressure plate, it might have reflected some light back onto the emulsion and thus exposed that part a bit more. I've experience this with slide film long time ago in one single batch of film.

That might occur with 220 film, but 120 backing paper runs the full length of the roll, and no one has made new 220 in some years. Further, if this were happening in camera, the fogging wouldn't run into the rebate.

I agree with those above, this is too sharply defined to be a loading problem, and running into the rebate means it can't be an in-camera issue after the back is closed (at least on a GW690). Tempting to suggest sacrificing an unexposed roll from the same batch, if you have any left; that would confirm whether it's a film production error. If it is, the easy way around it, if you have more of the same batch, would be to just skip frame 1, though with only 8 on the roll that's a little disappointing.

Arthurwg · Mar 29, 2020

I would shoot another roll of Ilford, preferably from the same batch, and have it commercially processed.

fuji gw690 - first frame irregularities

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