Frozen Film Failure

Alan9940 · Feb 17, 2016

Just curious if anyone else has had this issue or wishes to postulate a guess as to what happened...

I recently found a couple of 120 rolls of Tech Pan in the bottom of my freezer; I'd guess they're about 20 - 25 years old and have been stored in some sort of container in my freezer since bought new. Since I, also recently, discovered a web page by Jay D describing semi-stand development of Tech Pan with 510-Pyro I decided to shoot a roll. Just shot and developed it this morning and about 1/3 of the front part of the roll contains no images. The seventh frame is about 2/3 there with all remaining just fine.

So, it appears that the film more toward the center of the spool was OK with the front part not so good--no image recorded! I thought frozen film--especially slow speed film--would last darn near forever in a freezer. Not true? Or, perhaps Tech Pan being what it is was somehow affected by light? Very curious about all this because I fairly recently bought 50 rolls (35mm) of EFKE 25 thinking it would last me for my remaining years, if stored properly.

Thanks for any insight provided.

Old-N-Feeble · Feb 17, 2016

Wait... you haven't seen the bottom of your freezer for a quarter century??

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 17, 2016

Oh dear!
Don't you like fresh film?

Alan9940 · Feb 17, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
Oh dear!
Don't you like fresh film?

HaHa... I like fresh film just fine. But, some film like EFKE 25 and Fuji FP-3000b cannot be purchased now or purchased for what I originally paid. I've also bought film from various forum members at very reasonable prices; especially 8x10. Can't shoot it all at once...ergo, needs to be stored.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 18, 2016

Alan9940 said:
HaHa... I like fresh film just fine. But, some film like EFKE 25 and Fuji FP-3000b cannot be purchased now or purchased for what I originally paid. I've also bought film from various forum members at very reasonable prices; especially 8x10. Can't shoot it all at once...ergo, needs to be stored.

And you just found out why they don't exist any more: no one was buying them fresh.
Sincerely, what is the problem in buying what you need as you go? You don't need to buy 50 rolls in one go and put it in the freezer.
I use a bulk roll every month, that's about 18 rolls. Every month I go to local shop and buy a new one.
Rarely have more than 1 bulk roll around and a few rolls of colour film.
And the fridge can stay for food. Besides I have to share the fridge with 6 other people.
It isn't difficult to have a bit of discipline.
It also helps the remaining poor factories to stay in business.

About members selling film, that is second-hand film: well, it is worst than second-hand cars.
At least with cars you go places, with outdated film you go nowhere.

summicron1 · Feb 18, 2016

For what it's worth, I had a 100-foot roll of Pan F Ilford in the freezer for more than 30 years, finally thawed it out and it works just fine. No blank areas. No clue what happened to yours.

Vaughn · Feb 18, 2016

Just to double check -- the sections of film with no images -- are there still frame numbers present? It there are, then it is your camera, not the film.

bence8810 · Feb 18, 2016

This will probably sound a little ignorant but here it goes anyways.
Did you wait for the film to warm up to room temperature before opening it / loading it?

Otherwise I could only think of an in-camera failure but that half-a-frame rules that out pretty much...
Ben

Roger Cole · Feb 18, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
And you just found out why they don't exist any more: no one was buying them fresh.
Sincerely, what is the problem in buying what you need as you go? You don't need to buy 50 rolls in one go and put it in the freezer.
I use a bulk roll every month, that's about 18 rolls. Every month I go to local shop and buy a new one.
Rarely have more than 1 bulk roll around and a few rolls of colour film.
And the fridge can stay for food. Besides I have to share the fridge with 6 other people.
It isn't difficult to have a bit of discipline.
It also helps the remaining poor factories to stay in business.

About members selling film, that is second-hand film: well, it is worst than second-hand cars.
At least with cars you go places, with outdated film you go nowhere.

People generally buy up film that they won't be able to get anymore, or occasionally ahead of an announced price increase. I have a fair-for-me stock of Provia 400X frozen. I know that 400 film won't last as well as slower film, but this is fairly recent and will last long enough. If I could still get it (and I don't mean at $30 a roll like the remaining stock is now selling for, I mean at pre-cancellation prices) I wouldn't stock up.

Another point is that I have to order ALL my film, and it saves significantly on shipping to get a large-ish batch at a time. When I'm actively shooting and printing I typically order film two or three times a year, and just re-order whatever I don't have in the fridge. Works for me. I have a dedicated film fridge that I got very cheap, otherwise it would be a freezer, and I probably will replace it with a freezer (the above mentioned 400X is in the food freezer.)

In this poster's case he probably bought Efke 25 because it was going away. Nothing wrong with that if you are used to something there is no real replacement for (like Provia 400X, yet, go Film Ferrania!)

And no one buys "used" film. Just film someone owned and didn't use yet.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 18, 2016

Roger,
This is the difference between people being selfish and somewhat greedy and them being able to see the larger picture.
I also illustrates well when one looks at things from a financial point of view and not an economic point.
I'll give you an example: iphones aren't made in the US, are they? Just to save a few dollars in salary, production of Apple products went overseas.
That is looking to save a few bucks here and there, while leaving the US workers out of a job.
See what I mean for being selfish and greedy?

The same goes for film, especially when a cost increase is announced. In the end, if the manufacturer cannot get his expected revenue from film sales for a particular emulsion, that film is history.
And you and I know how many films went to "pastures green" just in the last 4-5 years for that particular reason.

Roger Cole · Feb 18, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
Roger,
This is the difference between people being selfish and somewhat greedy and them being able to see the larger picture.
I also illustrates well when one looks at things from a financial point of view and not an economic point.
I'll give you an example: iphones aren't made in the US, are they? Just to save a few dollars in salary, production of Apple products went overseas.
That is looking to save a few bucks here and there, while leaving the US workers out of a job.
See what I mean for being selfish and greedy?

The same goes for film, especially when a cost increase is announced. In the end, if the manufacturer cannot get his expected revenue from film sales for a particular emulsion, that film is history.
And you and I know how many films went to "pastures green" just in the last 4-5 years for that particular reason.

Other people do that, but I have never bought a large amount of film that was going to stay in production just because a price increase was announced. But I also won't judge people who do. I'm not in their financial shoes. I might in fact do that if I had a project that relied on the film that I was in the midst of and knew that I'd be buying a significant amount in the next couple of months or so. Frankly, NOT buying it ahead of a known price increase in that case would just be stupid.

I do and will continue to buy film in batches a few times a year, to save on shipping costs and to have the films I use regularly available at a moment's notice when I want them. Many of us cant' just run down to the local store (er, shop) and buy the film we use. The only films I can buy within less than an hour round trip drive from my house are a few of the most common types of Fuji C41, and that only in 35mm. Black and white, no. Any 120, no. Sheet film? I couldn't even find someone who knew what I was asking about closer than that. I seriously don't think this is going to make any difference to the manufacturers at all whether I make ten purchases of two rolls each or two purchases of six rolls and one of seven or whatever over the course of a year.

And if a film I like and rely on that is sufficiently different from anything else on the market is announced as discontinued, I will again buy as much as I can afford, or as much as I think I can use before it will go bad in cold storage, whichever is less. If someone online doesn't approve, well, can't say as I'll stay awake concerned about that.

Xmas · Feb 18, 2016

Freezing carrots is not like digging them up from salad patch, washing them and eating them raw.
It is a simple experiment you can do or may have done already?
If you live in Death Valley store long term in salad drawer of fridges. In zip log bag with fresh ovened silica gel.
Moisture destroys film pretty quickly.

Neal · Feb 18, 2016

Dear Alan,

Or maybe the lens cap was still on or a dark slide left in place? Just asking.

Neal Wydra

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 18, 2016

Xmas said:
Freezing carrots is not like digging them up from salad patch, washing them and eating them raw.
It is a simple experiment you can do or may have done already?
If you live in Death Valley store long term in salad drawer of fridges. In zip log bag with fresh ovened silica gel.
Moisture destroys film pretty quickly.

Even last Sunday I was reminded by a mutual acquaintance of what happens to a canister when left in fridge. It was all very fizzy.

Ricardo Miranda · Feb 18, 2016

Roger Cole said:
Other people do that, but I have never bought a large amount of film that was going to stay in production just because a price increase was announced. But I also won't judge people who do. I'm not in their financial shoes. I might in fact do that if I had a project that relied on the film that I was in the midst of and knew that I'd be buying a significant amount in the next couple of months or so. Frankly, NOT buying it ahead of a known price increase in that case would just be stupid.

I do and will continue to buy film in batches a few times a year, to save on shipping costs and to have the films I use regularly available at a moment's notice when I want them. Many of us cant' just run down to the local store (er, shop) and buy the film we use. The only films I can buy within less than an hour round trip drive from my house are a few of the most common types of Fuji C41, and that only in 35mm. Black and white, no. Any 120, no. Sheet film? I couldn't even find someone who knew what I was asking about closer than that. I seriously don't think this is going to make any difference to the manufacturers at all whether I make ten purchases of two rolls each or two purchases of six rolls and one of seven or whatever over the course of a year.

And if a film I like and rely on that is sufficiently different from anything else on the market is announced as discontinued, I will again buy as much as I can afford, or as much as I think I can use before it will go bad in cold storage, whichever is less. If someone online doesn't approve, well, can't say as I'll stay awake concerned about that.

Roger
Well, lets agree to disagree.

Trask · Feb 18, 2016

Well, this is quite a coincidence - I just pulled a refrigerated roll of TechPan 120 out of my refrigerator two days ago and the next day shot it in about 30 minutes with my Hasselblad 500C/M. I'll be developing it this weekend in liquid Technidol (it too lasts a long time as a glycol solution IIRC). I'll let you know if any of my frames are blank or only half exposed. The date the film box is 1998, so only 18 years old. Oh -- I too have some 510PYRO so I'd be interested in hearing what your time/temp/agitation was for the frames that turned out well.

paul ron · Feb 18, 2016

Possibly moisture got in between the layers where the roll isn't as tight? Freezer burn!

I have film that's 40 years old, never refrigerated, and is as good as new!... But I have a dry, relatively cool basement.

bsdunek · Feb 18, 2016

Old-N-Feeble said:
Wait... you haven't seen the bottom of your freezer for a quarter century??

Mine either. I think there is still a steak or two down there with some of my Dad's Minox Agfa 25 from 1968. Actually, the last time is used that, about a month ago, it was fine. (the film, not the steak). Hmmm. think I'll have steak tonight.

Old-N-Feeble · Feb 18, 2016

bsdunek said:
Mine either. I think there is still a steak or two down there with some of my Dad's Minox Agfa 25 from 1968. Actually, the last time is used that, about a month ago, it was fine. (the film, not the steak). Hmmm. think I'll have steak tonight.

Yum yum... 1968 vintage steak. And it had a film on it too!!

Hatchetman · Feb 18, 2016

so frames 1-4 no image and frame 5-12 are fine? What are the odds the film is the cause?

rpavich · Feb 18, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
Roger,
This is the difference between people being selfish and somewhat greedy and them being able to see the larger picture.

Lol.
It's selfish an greedy to buy something that you think might increase in price for the purpose of selling it later?

Alan9940 · Feb 18, 2016

Vaughn said:
Just to double check -- the sections of film with no images -- are there still frame numbers present? It there are, then it is your camera, not the film.

No frame numbers to be seen. Unless the camera I used suddenly went wonky on me, I'm pretty sure it's not the camera; though I haven't shot a fresh roll, yet, just to be sure. Actually, in thinking more about it I think I ruined the first part of the film myself. I was fooling around with a folder I recently bought where the shutter release mechanism was jamming. My guess is that I accidentally exposed the front part of the film to room light, and then forgot about it a few weeks later when I went to use it. Dump mistake! You'd think I'd learn after 50 years of playing with cameras!!

Alan9940 · Feb 18, 2016

bence8810 said:
This will probably sound a little ignorant but here it goes anyways.
Did you wait for the film to warm up to room temperature before opening it / loading it?

Otherwise I could only think of an in-camera failure but that half-a-frame rules that out pretty much...
Ben

Yep. Been using film from cold storage for about 40 years and I always wait, at least, 24 hours before using it.

Thanks, though.

Alan9940 · Feb 18, 2016

Neal said:
Dear Alan,

Or maybe the lens cap was still on or a dark slide left in place? Just asking.

Neal Wydra

Nope. no lens cap accidentally left on. About 2/3 of the film was just fine. Never left a dark slide in place, but I have forgotten to actually cock the shutter and didn't hear that it didn't fire when near something load like a waterfall!

Alan9940 · Feb 18, 2016

paul ron said:
Possibly moisture got in between the layers where the roll isn't as tight? Freezer burn!

I have film that's 40 years old, never refrigerated, and is as good as new!... But I have a dry, relatively cool basement.

Hi Paul, yeah, never had any problem with cold stored film. But, see above...I think I did it to myself!

Frozen Film Failure

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