Freezing powder chemicals and others

[xlaburu]

Hello,

I am converting a fridge in to a storage facility, the cool part is destinated to archive of film and paper basically, but I have the freezer with out any purpuse and I was wondering if chemicals like X-tol or D-76 in it's powder form can be stored at -20ºC without destroying the properties since I have a good amount of developer but I don't spend it too much since I mainly work on digital. It is kind of tricky business since some of these developers have organic chemicals that my alter if frozen and I don't like much the idea of storing chemicals in the fridge were I will store my archive, paper and film rolls even if it is in properly sealed boxes. I also wonder if the stop bath and fixer can be frozen, in this case in liquid form, I am affraid that chemicals can precipitate or also have the same possible problems of having organic chemicals in them (that is if it is a problem at all), I use the Ilford stop and fixers usually.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Kirks518]

I asked the same question a few months ago, and got mixed answers ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)). I was buying a bunch of D-76 that had ben freezer stored for a number of years. I bought the stuff (14 packs), and so far it's been fine. But, I keep the packs at room temperature for my own storage. YMMV.

 

[xlaburu]

Thanks for the update Kirk, never the less, I understand that they were refrigerated not frozen on a further post. It is still quite unclear the situation. Anyway, the expiration date is on 2016 so I hope that for then I will do some other B&W project.

PS: If I get any additional information I will post it.

Best,

 

[L Gebhardt]

I have limited experience storing chemicals in the freezer. I have however found that freezing glycin significantly increases its shelf life. I think anything that oxidizes will do so slower at colder temperatures. But you also have higher humidity in the freezer, especially if you open the door a lot. That extra moisture may get into the packaging, which isn't good. So I'd vacuum pack the bags before storage for the longest life.

I have had XTol powder get to the -20ºC range during shipping (didn't find the box for a few days when UPS put it under shelter behind the house) with no negative effects. However I do not freeze my XTol since I generally use it before the expiration date. And I've also used a pack a year out of date and it was fine too. I also don't freeze or vacuum pack any of my bulk powdered chemicals (besides glycin) and recipes come out consistent (within my ability to tell) year to year. So I don't worry too much about most powders.

 

[xlaburu]

Thanks Larry,

I have the X-tol and D-76 all sealed in the original package, so no humidity should enter, I also have one half way in a zip with silica in it, but that little bit doesen't bother me much, if it gets lumpy or dark coloured I will just throw that away. The sealed packages are the remains of a project and I have several of them that I don't know when I am going to consume, Hopefully it will be before they expire since I like shooting B&W, but if it realy expand the life of the developer, it has more sense to put them in the freezer now before the expiration date comes along then when it is around the corner, I imagine.

 

[David Lyga]

First of all, I despise the foil packets that Kodak sells powder in. I am from the 'can' era (even the ones with the key from when I was little!) I have seen too many foil packets (especially Dektol) turn brown over the years. Pinholes can readily form in those foil packets. When finally opened this ugliness is revealed. Developer is still usually good, but not quite AS good.

So, I recommend that you open any foil packet of powder and put such powder into a (clean and thoroughly dried) well-capped PET plastic bottle for storage. In the decades I have been doing darkroom work I have NEVER had a problem with powder chemicals being stored in this way, although PET plastic was not around decades ago and I stored in plastic jars with no problems. Keeping the powder DRY is essential. You need not refrigerate powders.

Liquids, I would, off hand, say that refrigeration would do no harm (other than possibly forming crystals which would most likely once again become liquid once brought back to room temperature). However, again, I have never refrigerated liquids. Developers, even concentrated ones, should be kept as air-tight as possible. - David Lyga

 

[xlaburu]

Hi David,

Thanks for your response, I will have a thought about changing the D-76 to a pot, it worries me a bit the fact of keepeng humitity out of it while pouring it in, I live in a sea city and humidity here is very often +80%Rh but if you say it will stand better in time it makes me think that it is a good idea to try out at least when the dry inner wind blows and ambient humidity drops . About the X-tol, on the other hand, it is an A-B mix, that makes it quite more complicated to store in pots, though I do have a pressision scale I don't quite like the idea of loosing the manufacturers proporcionality, though I have used more then once only a fraction of an A part and a B part, with no notisable problems, I am councious that it is a bit more of a risky business that I am not too willing to take with an important job.


Best,

 

[paul_c5x4]

I have a Foodsaver that I use to vacuum pack many chemicals, film, and paper - For the most part, I do not try to suck all air out. This stops any moist air getting in to containers/boxes, which should limit any damage from long term storage. Most of my chemicals are just stored in a cool place, and the freezer is primarily used for paper & film.

I doubt there is much to be gained from freezing powdered chemicals, and I'd be wary of freezing liquids.

 

[railwayman3]

I'd go with Paul ^^^, and say that, while I keep my main stocks of sensitive materials in either fridge or freezer (just to extend expiry times, particularly on the rarer films which are no longer available), I really can't see any reason to freeze chemicals, particularly given the extra need for a dry atmosphere. (A friend who is studying chemistry at University agrees with me...other than certain rare chemicals, unrelated to anything used in photography, most substances just need to be kept dry and at normal temperatures, just avoiding excessive heat.).

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Glycinl is probably the only chemical that will profit from freezing. Make sure that it is double bagged. Anything else is a waste of effort.

 

[xlaburu]

Hi Paul,

I have read that many people freeze paper, I have Ilford FB multigrade paper, but I can't see any expiring date. :S About film, do you remove the film from the original pot to freeze it? or do you freeze it in the original container? Aren't there risks of having humidity problems by being a rolled up thing?

 

[xlaburu]

Hi people! Got the solution to my dilema thanks to Photo Engeneer:

"You can freeze powdered chemistry for years or you can refrigerate it at your option depending on the lifetime you wish.

Do not ever freeze liquid chemistry and do not refrigerate them if they separate in any way such as crystals or oils."

Never the less, I have to thank you all for your interest because you have given me many many good advices that I will probably work on to improve my storage, and any other good ideas are still welcome if you wish.

Thank you all and have a Marry Christmass, hopfully I will see you around the next time I have a doubt I can't solve with some research.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have a Foodsaver that I use to vacuum pack many chemicals, film, and paper -.

Sounds like an interesting idea, but link to Foodsaver doesn't seem to work, Paul

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[gone]

For what it's worth, I have been using packets and cans of Microdol-X powder that is quite old. To my knowledge, it was never refrigerated. It has all worked like new. So maybe it does not need to go in the fridge.

 

[xlaburu]

I know freezing is not too important for powder, but since I don't know when I will do my next B&W project and I am conditioning a fridge to keep my archives, I have a spare freezer that is separated but goes with the same compressor as the fridge so I can't tourn it off seperatly. And I thought that it was a good idea to use it to storage for the various B/W powder chemicals I have and I don't know how long it will take me to spend.

 

[bsdunek]

For what it's worth, I have been using packets and cans of Microdol-X powder that is quite old. To my knowledge, it was never refrigerated. It has all worked like new. So maybe it does not need to go in the fridge.

Just a ditto. I have several packets of Microdol-X from my Father that was from about 1980. I use it for Minox film and it is fine.

Someone asked about paper. To my knowledge, an expiration date is usually not on paper - I don't know why. I keep my excess stock in the freezer, and have some many years old that has no fogging. I do leave it a couple of days to thaw though, just to avoid any condensation which would cause it to stick together (speaking from experience).

 

[paul_c5x4]

Sounds like an interesting idea, but link to Foodsaver doesn't seem to work

Try searching the Lakeland.co.uk site: http://www.lakeland.co.uk/19653/FoodSaver-Vacuum-Sealer

I have Ilford FB multigrade paper, but I can't see any expiring date. :S About film, do you remove the film from the original pot to freeze it? or do you freeze it in the original container? Aren't there risks of having humidity problems by being a rolled up thing?

Ilford do not put an expiry date on any of their papers unlike film - I bag boxes of both and seal the bags after squeezing most of the air out and haven't had any problems with moisture after removing them from the freezer. The bags remain sealed until the contents have "defrosted" (usually taken out a day or three before I need them). Rolls of 120 film are already sealed in foil packs, so they do not (generally) need bagging any further. 35mm film is not something I currently use, although I do have a few odd rolls in the bottom of the fridge.

 

[xlaburu]

I thik that I'll freeze paper too since I have close to 100 sheets of FB 40x30 cm and I whont be using them in a short periode of time despite I print once and a while still, but in low quantities. Thanks for the hint Paul, it's very usefull, I was going to refrigerate them, but for what you say it is probably best just to freeze them and not have to worry.

 

[paul_c5x4]

The Foodsaver system is good for boxes of paper (and film) up to 10x8 (20x25 cm). for larger sizes, I have been using vacuum storage bags intended for storing clothing/bedding.

 

[xlaburu]

I will do so Paul, thanks for the paper hint. I am a bit wearry about the 35mm frozen film, I don't think that the plastic container is as airtight as the aluminum foil one of larger formats, and as such, perhaps more humidity has build up in it creating ice if I freeze it. I will have to investigate that a bit, on the other hand, I just can keep them in the fridge, they are not like the chemicals that can ruin my archive if particles get airborn hopefully.