Freezer film storage

BradS said:

Until you've had some film ruined in the freezer. That would be actual physical evidence contradicting your hypothesis.

One counter example disproves the hypothesis (period, end of story).

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Not true. A single data point is itself a variable and could be a contraindication based on an uncontrolled event.

Basic stats.

Twinkies ARE the source of cosmic rays.

When I was in school our beta counter was surrounded by 6 inches of lead. While this amount of lead reduced background radiation it had no effect on reducing cosmic rays. For that you you would need a thickness of many meters of lead shielding.

Aristophanes said:

Not true. A single data point is itself a variable and could be a contraindication based on an uncontrolled event.

Basic stats.

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nice try....I'm not taking the bait.

(PhD. Stats.)

semi-ambivalent said:

Waste Isolation (Plant/Project/?) New Mexico or Nevada. Store atomic waste in a salt mine. This was maybe 10 years ago, possibly more. I'm sure someone will correct me. (Oh, and I do remember "Wip Inflation Now!". Just wish I had kept my lapel pin.)

s-a

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It's actually WIPP, located outside of Carlsbad, NM. And, yes, they are storing nuclear waste on a daily basis.

BradS said:

Until you've had some film ruined in the freezer...

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Have you had any ruined that way? If so, what film was it, i.e. how was it packaged while in a freezer?

Another reference

Sal Santamaura said:

...Anyone wanting more information about cold storage should read Wilhelm's opus...

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I forgot to include this one, also on Wilhelm's site, that provides additional relevant information:

Dead Link Removed

Sal;

That reference has some good conclusions but uses a false premise. The glass transition temperature (TG here) is 20C for unhardened gelatin but is different and higher for hardened gelatins and varies with each hardener and level of hardener. This fact invalidates some of his premises and part of his conclusions.

Remember that only unhardened gelatin has a TG of 20 C (not 22 as he reports). This is why early films and papers were processed at 68F (Because the TG is taken to be 20 C but is really 68 Photographers, go figure!). Anyhow, the purpose of hardening a photo product is to raise the TG so that you can process at a higher temperature with acceptable results or at a lower temperature with better results than unhardened film or paper.

The fact that hardening can affect TG and thus keeping has not been shown at EK. Keeping is more dependant on heat and humidity than it is on TG. In fact, a hardening series can have the same keeping but vary with addenda or emulsion. Therefore I would use this paper with great reservation.

PE

Sal Santamaura said:

Have you had any ruined that way? If so, what film was it, i.e. how was it packaged while in a freezer?

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Well, I cannot definitively say that storing the film in the freezed CAUSED the damage but it is difficult for me to imagine another possible factor let alone link it to the damge observed. Here is what I have observed.

Seven boxes of FujiChrome 5x7 film (5 provia and two Velvia) bought over a span of three years. Five different batches. Stored in the original, unopened manufacturer's packaging. Storage in an ordinary, relatively small (about a half cubic meter interior volume) houshold chest freezer with nothing else in it except film stock. Temperature control set to the nominal value (4 on a scale of 1 to 6). Storage time ranging from three to five years. Freezer was opened only briefly to add or remove materials and probably less than one per month on average. Allowing eight hours to come up to ambient room temperature after removal of a box from storage.

In three boxes I observed sheets of film stuck together. All boxes have a distinct odor.

It has been at least eight years since I stopped storing film in the freezer. In that time, my rate of film usage has increased, I buy film more frequently now, and at most, two boxes at a time. All is stored in an un-airconditioned home and occasionally put a box in the bottom drawer of the fridge. I have not experienced any further issues since abandoning the freezer. However, I am buying on an ongoing and strictly as needed basis. I think this approach is better.

Brad;

I have seen the sticking problem before but not with unopened boxes of Kodak sheet film. This is a humidity problem. If the box is unopened and sheets stick, then the final conditioning stage of coating was set at too high humidity. That is my opinion.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Brad;

I have seen the sticking problem before but not with unopened boxes of Kodak sheet film. This is a humidity problem. If the box is unopened and sheets stick, then the final conditioning stage of coating was set at too high humidity. That is my opinion.

PE

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PE: In the thirty years I've been shooting film, I have never experienced any defect in any Kodak film stock - ever - regardless of how it was stored. Nor, for that matter, in any of the few Kodak chemicals that I use (D-76, HC-110, Dektol, Indicator Stop Bath, Hypo Clearing Agent, PhotoFlo 200).

I do hope that after the corporate dust settles, Production of Kodak film stock will continue in Rochester.

Photo Engineer said:

...That reference has some good conclusions but uses a false premise. Therefore I would use this paper with great reservation...

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OK, I'll not use it as a basis for action. Instead, I'll rely on my personal experience.

BradS said:

...Here is what I have observed.

Seven boxes of FujiChrome 5x7 film (5 provia and two Velvia) bought over a span of three years. Five different batches. Stored in the original, unopened manufacturer's packaging. Storage in an ordinary, relatively small (about a half cubic meter interior volume) houshold chest freezer with nothing else in it except photo materials. Temperature control set to the nominal value (4 on a scale of 1 to 6). Storage time ranging form three to five years. Freezer was not opened only briefly to add or remove materials and probably less than one per month on average. Allowing eight hours to come up to ambient room temperature after removal of a box from storage.

In three boxes I observed sheets of film stuck together. All boxes have a distinct odor...

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I don't have personal experience with long-term freezing of Fuji sheet film, although friends who do haven't reported such problems. I have kept Kodak sheet film in the freezer compartment for over a decade without any sticking or "spot" issues. Perhaps I shouldn't have appended the bit about Fuji and Ilford, since they might not control their products' humidity at time of packaging as tightly as Kodak does. All boxes do pick up the "freezer smell," even through LDPE ziploc bags if they were placed in those. However, I've never detected that odor inside Kodak's laminated vapor-seal envelopes, despite my extremely low olfactory threshold.

Photo Engineer said:

...I have seen the sticking problem before but not with unopened boxes of Kodak sheet film. This is a humidity problem. If the box is unopened and sheets stick, then the final conditioning stage of coating was set at too high humidity. That is my opinion.

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Probably the case.

BradS said:

...I am buying on an ongoing and strictly as needed basis. I think this approach is better.

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A wonderful approach and one I take with Ilford products. However, the threads I linked to were about Kodak's discontinuation of 8x10 320TXP. I also suspect we'll see the end of 5x7 320TXP as soon as Kodak runs out of 5x7 boxes. Therefore, since I've found 320TXP's curve shape is the best match to my cache of Azo, I made a decision to store as much 5x7 and 8x10 as practical. For reasons those posts covered, I'm not worried about considering my stock in the freezer a lifetime supply.

Given your use of 4x5 320TXP and Kodak's current situation, you might be forced to take a different approach soon. Or move to Ilford.

A very thick layer of lawyers, stored underground on top of the lead-lined freezer is your best bet. Unless you are sensitive to odors . . .

Put them in the freezer!

PE

Hey, I resemble that!

Hmmm, twinkies and salt mines, I have stored film for years (15 or so) in the fridge and I haven't had any problems.

Although, all the talk in this thread has made me think about it.