Freestyle Arista Premium and Legacy Pro 120

[Marvin]

Since these films seem to be popular in 35mm just wonder if others would like to see them in 120?

 

[Chiron]

I would love that. Legacy Pro 400 in 120 would rock.

 

[michaelbsc]

I inquired about Arista Premium in 120 as soon as it was announced, and the response from Freestyle was that the manufacturer would supply it if sales indicated it was a money maker.

I do shoot some Arista Premium, but I don't shoot a lot of 135, so I'm hardly adding to the sales. I'd buy it in a hot minute were it available in 120.

 

[Mark Layne]

What if they just happened to be Plus x, Tri x and Acros respectively?

 

[arealitystudios]

If either of these films where available in 120 I would buy tons of it.

I don't shoot very much 35mm but I've purchased some rolls of Arista Premium because I know a good value when I see it. In fact it has gotten me to pull out my old SRT-101 more than I normally would because the film is such a good price.

Now if it was available in 120 I'd be buying it up like crazy, particularly the 400 speed. I like Foma 100 as my staple 100 speed film (or more particularly Arista.Edu) but I like Tri-X a whole lot more than Foma 400 because I don't find that the Foma stuff pushes particularly well. In the dense dark forests of the Pacific Northwest I'm always in need of a good film that can be pushed.

 

[Josh Harmon]

I would buy a lot of 120 Arista Premium 100 if they released it in that format. Otherwise I am still stuck with Arista EDU (Fomapan) 100 in 120, which isn't bad but I like premium better, at least in 135.

Josh

 

[CD55]

I'd definitely be interested in Arista Premium in 120. I just ordered some more in 35mm and have just started shooting in MF so it would be nice to have it 120 just for consistency.

 

[fschifano]

I would love that. Legacy Pro 400 in 120 would rock.

Except that it's Neopan 400 and Fuji stopped making it. Bummer. I sure would like to see Arista Premium in 120 though. I too would buy it in a NY minute - especially the 100 stuff. Have you seen the price of Plus-X 120 lately? Ouch!

 

[michaelbsc]

OK, so let's jack up the rhetoric here. We all know that Arista Premium at $2 a pop is a good price in 135. I just looked at Adorama and see that PX125 in 120 size is $25 for a five pack, and TX400 in 120 size is $3.75.

So where's the price point that A) makes the "nameless manufacturer" willing to produce it while simultaneously B) makes us want to buy it.

Are we willing to pay a premium to get Arista Premium? If it cost $2.30 instead of the $2.00 that 135 costs, would we pay that 15% premium to get it?

I suspect we would. I know I would. That's beginning to get down to the territory of the Shanghai brand film.

 

[arealitystudios]

Are we willing to pay a premium to get Arista Premium? If it cost $2.30 instead of the $2.00 that 135 costs, would we pay that 15% premium to get it?

I suspect we would. I know I would. That's beginning to get down to the territory of the Shanghai brand film.

I would as well.

 

[michaelbsc]

I would as well.

And I suspect many, many others would, too. But how do you attract Freestyle and Kodak's attention.

Remember, for them it's not an insignificant investment. Sure, the manufacturer has already got all the equipment, but at minimum there's a new backing paper graphic to lay out, print, and produce (unlike 135, with it's simple canister paint), as well as the corporate hierarchy to drag along. The manufacturer cannot possibly make 100 cartons of this and stop, and Freestyle is on the hook for the entire run if it's got their logo and brand on it.

So, how big is the demand really? Enough to support it?

 

[fschifano]

So where's the price point that A) makes the "nameless manufacturer" willing to produce it while simultaneously B) makes us want to buy it.

Are we willing to pay a premium to get Arista Premium? If it cost $2.30 instead of the $2.00 that 135 costs, would we pay that 15% premium to get it?

When I use 120, I'm looking for the smoothest tonality and the least grain possible. That pretty much demands a slower film like Plus-X, and precludes the use of hand held cameras. I have no problem with those restrictions, and I don't use fast films too often in medium format. So my complaint isn't so much about Tri-X at about $3.75/roll for 120 (don't use enough of it to make a significant difference in my film budget), but rather with Plus-X at $5/roll. If it were possible to profitably market re-labeled Kodak Plus-X and Tri-X as Arista Premium 100 and 400 in 120 at about the same price as Acros 120 and the now defunct Neopan 400 120, that would do it for me. Right now, I happily use Acros 100 and Arista.EDU Ultra in 120; but I do prefer the look of Plus-X.

 

[wblynch]

Add me to the list.

Oh, and maybe some 127 too !!!

 

[mwdake]

You bet I would buy it in 120.
I asked Freestyle a while back and I don't they ever answered me.

 

[2F/2F]

I can't imagine anyone being able to offer Acros much lower that $3 a roll, which is what the Fuji version costs.

I also can't imagine Plus-X and Tri-X 120 film for half what it retails for when in a Kodak box (which is what it costs in 35mm).

Kodak cuts shit-tons of perforated 35mm film. I imagine that it is less expensive for them to send a bunch of this to Freestyle than it would be to do the same with 120.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I will stick with Kodak and Ilford for 35mm, 120, and 4x5.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Steve

 

[erikg]

And I suspect many, many others would, too. But how do you attract Freestyle and Kodak's attention.

Remember, for them it's not an insignificant investment. Sure, the manufacturer has already got all the equipment, but at minimum there's a new backing paper graphic to lay out, print, and produce (unlike 135, with it's simple canister paint), as well as the corporate hierarchy to drag along. The manufacturer cannot possibly make 100 cartons of this and stop, and Freestyle is on the hook for the entire run if it's got their logo and brand on it.

So, how big is the demand really? Enough to support it?

Seems like it would be easier for Kodak just to drop the price on their own branded products, but they have never shown any interest in doing that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Seems like it would be easier for Kodak just to drop the price on their own branded products, but they have never shown any interest in doing that.

One minor problem, the cost of the chemical keeps going up.

 

[Jordan]

A couple of months ago, I e-mailed Freestyle and asked about 120-format versions of the Legacy Pro or Premium films. The response was that they had no plans to offer them in 120.

 

[erikg]

One minor problem, the cost of the chemical keeps going up.

Which chemical is that? In any case, I don't think it's likely we will see any version of a lower priced Kodak or Fuji made 120 product. Neopan 400 was pretty great, I'm sorry that it is gone.

 

[michaelbsc]

Seems like it would be easier for Kodak just to drop the price on their own branded products, but they have never shown any interest in doing that.

I think herein lies the real answer. The 120 market fallout was decades ago. (Jeez this makes me sound old.) In the '80s and '90s all of the consumer grade cameras changed from the old roll film to the "professional" 35mm style. Woo-hoo thought the consumer.

So Kodak has already absorbed the market loss on the roll film, and the current level of sales is likely to remain in slow decline rather than repeat the freefall that occurred when everyone and his brother bought a new 35mm autofocus/autoexposure/make_coffee cameras and put the Brownie box on a shelf. (Not to mention the fact that most of the disposables also used 135 format, further reducing the demand for roll film by consumers.)

Then comes the digital revolution, and 135 film sale is falling like roll film did earlier. Now, enter Freestyle, with a big marketing presence that Kodak no longer has. (The retail channel is about gone. You find a box at WalMart.) Kodak is seeing a precipitous falloff in 35mm sales. Freestyle offers to market the product at a lower cost.

Rather than bathe in blood like they did with roll film, the Kodak bean counters say, "well, the production line is already depreciated, so XX cents margin is better than closing down the line for zero cents margin." And the deal is signed.

A couple of months ago, I e-mailed Freestyle and asked about 120-format versions of the Legacy Pro or Premium films. The response was that they had no plans to offer them in 120.

Freestyle, in November 2008, answered my email stating that they would pursue Arista Premium in both 120 and sheets if demand warranted, unlike the response to Jordan's email a few weeks ago.

Why this back down over the two year interval? First, I suspect that the Arista Premium has sold well, but not in truckloads. So Freestyle has to look at whatever would be Kodak's demand for price and volume to see if they can sell it at a profit. Without being in the meetings myself, I'm left to guess that the answer was no, they can't sell enough to make a profit. Freestyle isn't a charity.

Why not? Well I suspect that part of Kodak's position is that since this is going to cut into the sales channel they already have, rather than revive a dying sales channel like the 35mm deal did, they want a premium price for it. Let's be realistic here; more than one person has stated that they would buy 120 Arista Premuim over 120 PlusX in a hot minute. So every roll Freestyle sells would be a lost sale to Kodak branded product. So Kodak's terms to Freestyle have to be such that it compensates the loss. After all, Kodak isn't in business to go broke. Seems to me they have enough trouble just staying out of bankruptcy. (Polaroid didn't make it. Ilford either reorganized or didn't make it depending on how you choose to look at it. Agfa?)

My best guess is that when all was said and done, Freestyle was looking at trying to market Arista Premium 100 in 120 for just about the same $5 that PX125 costs. Who would buy it then? If I'm ordering something from Freestyle anyway, sure I'll take some at even price if it's the same film. But if I'm ordering something from someone else, then I'll take the Kodak for the same price. It becomes a sale of convenience rather than explicitly searching out the product.

For now, when I need another batch of B&W 135 film, I'm going to Freestyle even if I just got off the phone with Ultrafine or B&H. Price drives the consideration, and without the price advantage it isn't a strong seller.

 

[fotch]

Why this back down over the two year interval?

Could be as simple as talking to two different clerks, neither of which know what is really going on with the top management who probably would make a different statement.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Which chemical is that? In any case, I don't think it's likely we will see any version of a lower priced Kodak or Fuji made 120 product. Neopan 400 was pretty great, I'm sorry that it is gone.

Just about all the photo chemistry. Every time I go to buy more, even if it is only a few weeks later, has gone up. Pick your poison.

 

[marcmarc]

I was in Freestyle last week and asked the clerk who rang me up why the Arista Premium films weren't being offered in 120. He stated that the manufacturer wanted Freestyle to commit to purchasing more units then they were willing to do.

 

[michaelbsc]

All this talk, and today I find PX125 in 120 on sale at Ultrafine.

http://www.ultrafineonline.com/kopl125fi120.html