Freedom Lost or maybe not?

Andy K

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Another problem with the increased paranoia affecting the US is it is starting to kill off trade with the States. I have a couple of friends who would regularly visit the US on business. But since 9/11 the delays at Passport Control and the plain rudeness of US Customs officials has made both friends cut their business ties in the US. Both are now trading unhindered in Europe.

Both are of the opinion that US Citizens are not treated so abhorrently when they come to the UK so why are UK citizens treated so in the US?
 

noseoil

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Andy, much of this behavior is the result of political correctness here in the U.S. Because "racial profiling" is a problem, all people are treated as if they were terrorists. The reasoning is that in this management of all being equal, no one can claim they were singled out and profiled. This is maddness. I can't say that I blame your friends for not wishing to trade in this environment.
 

doughowk

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Is racial profiling of photographers acceptable governmental behavior? Many Anglos would consider it a small price to pay for increased sense of security. Does such loss of freedom for a large percentage of our population actually hinder terrorists? Unfortunately, many appear to agree and willingly support such loss. Do we trust the current administration to not use the FBI terrorist list & Patriot Act to harrass/intimidate its politcal opponents? Do we also trust them to support democracy & abide by the peoples' viewpoint as voiced thru elections? Could the corner we are turning be in direction of a right-wing dictatorship?
 

roteague

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mrcallow said:
We need to realize that biggest, strongest, richest does not equal greatest.
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Sadly, it seems that our country has become so obsessed with material possessions we that we have given up a lot of our feedom and safety because of it. There are numerious places here in Hawaii that I don't feel safe going to. Last year I was in Germany and I remember being able to walk anywhere without fear, it was so refreshing. My friend who lives on the South Island of New Zealand tells me that she still doesn't lock her doors and leaves the keys in her car when out shopping. Would it be that our country could be the same.
 

roteague

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Andy K said:
Both are of the opinion that US Citizens are not treated so abhorrently when they come to the UK so why are UK citizens treated so in the US?
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Yes, I have a close friend, who lives in New Zealand, but grew up in the UK. She returns to England every year on holiday, but refuses to travel through the US because of how she has been treated by customs. Last year I went to Germany and no one even looked at my passport when I landed in Frankfurt; we Americans seem to overreact to a lot of things.
 

L Gebhardt

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mrcallow said:
We need to realize that biggest, strongest, richest does not equal greatest. That there is a time to lead and a time to join or follow.
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We also need to stop refering to our president as the leader of the free world. This has just got to be seen as insulting to the rest of the world. Maybe if Bush didn't see himself this way he would respect the rest of the worlds opinions - that would surely help in the long run.
 

SteveGangi

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"...A state of war is not a blank check for the president..."
Sandra Day O'Connor, US Supreme Court.
 

bjorke

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Is racial profiling of photographers acceptable governmental behavior?
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Here in the Silicon Valley, that would mean the surveillance of abot 40% of the population (e.g., 60% of Milpitas was born outside the US, and most of them in Muslim countries or South Asia). Not that I don't think it's possible that just such a thing is happening.

"Profiling" is a bureaucratic euphemism for institutionalized racism. Don't think it's not so. Did anyone start profiling white males after the Oklahoma City bombing?
 

blansky

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Bjork wrote;
Did anyone start profiling white males after the Oklahoma City bombing?

Actually they did. They started profiling white male yahoos that belonged to militias.

The whole business of profiling is interesting. Do we stop and check everyone including little old ladies, little kids, nuns and blonds from Norway. Or do we check out people of the middle eastern descent who happen to be Muslim, who as it turns out were the perpetrators of 9/11 and members of the group that has declared war on us.

Logic has it that we would do the latter. Whether it's right or wrong is another matter.

If I lived in China and a whole bunch of Anglos were creating terror there I would probably expect that being an Anglo I would be looked at often. It's common sense.

Doesn't make it right, just common sense.


MIchael McBlane
 

jd callow

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blansky said:
Doesn't make it right, just common sense.
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Profiling based upon ethnicity from what I have read doesn't work statistically and has a long (as in throughout the ages) history of being an avenue for abuse.

Profiling based upon behavior along with physical characteristics is from my understanding far more effective.

It gets back to do we do what is right, because we are or want to be the 'good guy' or do we try any and everything regardless?
 

Andy K

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"The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives."
- Winston Churchill
​
 

Aggie

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IS IT TIME YET?


IS IT TIME YET?


IS IT TIME YET?


OR TO QUOTE CHERYL JACOBS, "OY"


TO MOVE THIS THREAD TO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION WEBSITE?
 

roteague

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Agreed. I don't want to see someone pulled out for extra searches because of their ethnicity or whatever. The way it is done now is way overboard; searching 80 year old grandmothers, handicapped, really doesn't make sense. There should be more common sense applied all across the board. It doesn't make sense that we (as a society) expect computer people, for example, to be highly educated and trained, but hire and minimally train people who protect our security.
 

roteague

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Aggie said:
TO MOVE THIS THREAD TO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION WEBSITE?
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I don't see this as a political discussion at all, but, rather a discussion about an issue that affects all of us who travel.
 

Andy K

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It would make more sense to fortify the border with Mexico. No terrorist is going to risk arriving in the US at an international airport... but you can bet they'll walk in through the pretty much open door in the south...
 

Eric Rose

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L Gebhardt said:
We also need to stop refering to our president as the leader of the free world. This has just got to be seen as insulting to the rest of the world.
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The only place and I mean the ONLY place Bush is referred to as the leader of the free world is in the US media. None of the rest of us consider an American President our leader.

It's the same arrogance that makes any sporting champions in the US the "World" champions.
 

Ole

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EricR said:
hey come on where are those beautiful blond babes from Norway??!!
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Here in Norway, of course!

Where else?

 

bjorke

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roteague said:
It doesn't make sense that we (as a society) expect computer people, for example, to be highly educated and trained...
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You clearly have never dealt with Comcast Networks Service Dept.
 
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