Frame spacing issue (Nikon N80)

Daniela · Feb 20, 2017

Hello everyone,
newbie here (albeit a long-time lurker).
I've started developing film at home and noticed a difference between frame spaces in one of the rolls (pictured).
I have developed 6 of the 17 rolls I took on vacation and this is the first one like this that I encounter. I remember that when I shot the pictures, I felt a strange lag or jump in the film advancing. I kept shooting, though, without a problem. In this roll, this only happened in the first two shots. The rest of the roll is normal.
What could this irregular spacing be due to? Should I go get the camera serviced before it completely breaks down? This camera is 16 years old, by the way.
Thanks in advance for your help

silveror0 · Feb 20, 2017

Do you routinely tension the film after loading it by using the rewind control? Check the advance mechanism behavior for smoothness with no film loaded by opening the back and stroking the advance lever? If it seems normal, then perhaps load a short roll of film and tension it with the rewind control and stroke it again with the back open as it may only malfunction with tension on the film. Tension on the film ensures that the film's sprocket holes stay snugly engaged on the cogs of the advance spindle.

If all seems OK, then you may be experiencing the same phenomenon I noticed many years ago when I was using my Leicas - which were advancing very smoothly (of course). The distance between frames would appear, and I discovered that wide-angle lenses caused a narrower gap between frames than did the longer focal length lenses. This was due to the 35mm format mask being a slight distance in front of the film and allowed the short lenses to project a wider frame on the film. This caught my eye when cutting the film into 6-frame strips for storage, and the very narrow gaps between frames made cutting very tedious to avoid cutting into the images.

chip j · Feb 20, 2017

Nothing to worry about--I get on my many cameras too.

Daniela · Feb 20, 2017

silveror0 said:
Do you routinely tension the film after loading it by using the rewind control? Check the advance mechanism behavior for smoothness with no film loaded by opening the back and stroking the advance lever? If it seems normal, then perhaps load a short roll of film and tension it with the rewind control and stroke it again with the back open as it may only malfunction with tension on the film. Tension on the film ensures that the film's sprocket holes stay snugly engaged on the cogs of the advance spindle.

If all seems OK, then you may be experiencing the same phenomenon I noticed many years ago when I was using my Leicas - which were advancing very smoothly (of course). The distance between frames would appear, and I discovered that wide-angle lenses caused a narrower gap between frames than did the longer focal length lenses. This was due to the 35mm format mask being a slight distance in front of the film and allowed the short lenses to project a wider frame on the film. This caught my eye when cutting the film into 6-frame strips for storage, and the very narrow gaps between frames made cutting very tedious to avoid cutting into the images.

The advance and rewind mechanism on this camera is automatic, so I don't think I can do what you describe, but I'll give it a try when I finish the current roll. Your experience with the Leicas is interesting. I went back and looked at those frames, and -while I shot with a zoom lens- it was open at a wide aperture, so I'm thinking my issue might have more to do with a mechanical malfunction. I'll keep your thoughts in mind. Thanks for your reply!

Daniela · Feb 20, 2017

chip j said:
Nothing to worry about--I get on my many cameras too.

Well, while it is somewhat reassuring to know this happens and it might not be a big deal; but it's also disconcerting given that it cuts the frame. What if I happen to shoot the BEST PICTURE EVER, this happens and my shot at photography stardom gets ruined forever?! The horror!
Thanks for your reply!

trythis · Feb 20, 2017

I had the same issue with an olympus Mju ii. I bought it for $7 at a flea market in Denmark and it worked OK it just wasted 1/3 of each roll of film. It would advance properly with the film door open...which is not very useful with film... but once it was closed the spacing was always 1.3 times the distance it should be, like it was a panorama formatted 35mm camera (if only.)

The infrared sensor that sees the holes in the film for some reason no longer worked in the dark, but worked fine in the daylight. I have no idea why it advanced as far as it did unless it was just a default failsafe built in. I chucked the body in the trash and moved on. Nikon's N80's are nice little bodies but cheaper to replace than repair.

chip j · Feb 20, 2017

I think there will ALWAYS be A space between frames-just be careful when you cut. When I send my film to a lab, I request that it be uncut-I'd rather do that job myself. Except for slides, of course, but the mount covers the cut.

Daniela · Feb 21, 2017

trythis said:
I had the same issue with an olympus Mju ii. I bought it for $7 at a flea market in Denmark and it worked OK it just wasted 1/3 of each roll of film. It would advance properly with the film door open...which is not very useful with film... but once it was closed the spacing was always 1.3 times the distance it should be, like it was a panorama formatted 35mm camera (if only.)

The infrared sensor that sees the holes in the film for some reason no longer worked in the dark, but worked fine in the daylight. I have no idea why it advanced as far as it did unless it was just a default failsafe built in. I chucked the body in the trash and moved on. Nikon's N80's are nice little bodies but cheaper to replace than repair.

chip j said:
I think there will ALWAYS be A space between frames-just be careful when you cut. When I send my film to a lab, I request that it be uncut-I'd rather do that job myself. Except for slides, of course, but the mount covers the cut.

Your comments made me realize something that I didn't mention before: not only is the space bigger in between frames, but the frames right after the bigger gap are shorter in length by 1/2cm. I'm not sure I fully understand why that is. Even if the film advanced irregularly, wouldn't a full frame still be exposed?

Daniela · Feb 21, 2017

It just occurred to me that shutter curtains not fully opening could account for the whole frame not being exposed. However, they run horizontally and open vertically, so that can't be it. Here's a video that shows that:
While this issue seems to have been a one-time thing, I'd like to understand what happened. So, if you're knowledgeable about the mechanics of a camera, feel free to share.

John Koehrer · Feb 21, 2017

Automation is grand isn't it? When you load the camera, do you check that the film across the shutter opening is flat?
Another way to put tension on the film when you're loading is to do it with the cartridge outside the camera. Can't hurt.
The camera count sprocket holes with an infrared thingy near the take up spool, it may be it's got a minor obstruction in
or near the channel for the back.

shutterfinger · Feb 22, 2017

What condition are the batteries in? New/near new, in use for a while, in use for a long time?
Do not trust the battery check of the camera other than to show batteries are installed.
Batteries will show good with the battery check but fail under operation load in Nikon cameras.

Daniela · Feb 22, 2017

John Koehrer said:
Automation is grand isn't it? When you load the camera, do you check that the film across the shutter opening is flat?
Another way to put tension on the film when you're loading is to do it with the cartridge outside the camera. Can't hurt.
The camera count sprocket holes with an infrared thingy near the take up spool, it may be it's got a minor obstruction in
or near the channel for the back.

No, I honestly never pay close attention when I put the film in. You're the second person to mention the infrared sensor. I'll make sure to check that too. Thanks!

Daniela · Feb 22, 2017

shutterfinger said:
What condition are the batteries in? New/near new, in use for a while, in use for a long time?
Do not trust the battery check of the camera other than to show batteries are installed.
Batteries will show good with the battery check but fail under operation load in Nikon cameras.

Batteries are old. I'm always surprised at how long they last (according to the battery check), but I have noticed a little lag in camera responses. Thanks for bringing this up!

BMbikerider · Feb 22, 2017

Does the N80 (F80 in UK) use an Infra red sensor to indicate when to stop winding the film? If so, the sensor may be playing up or even may be a bit of dirt blocking the sensor.

Daniela · Feb 22, 2017

BMbikerider said:
Does the N80 (F80 in UK) use an Infra red sensor to indicate when to stop winding the film? If so, the sensor may be playing up or even may be a bit of dirt blocking the sensor.

Yep, I just mentioned the sensor above. Funny thing I found in the manual: a mention that infrared film can't be used in this camera because of the infrared sensor. I've used infrared film with no issues in the past, so that's not true!

Frame spacing issue (Nikon N80)

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