Frame edge marks on old 127 negatives

Romanko · May 16, 2022

I have some old negatives shot on 127 type film around 1930s. All have marks at the edge of the frame as shown in the images (the negatives in the images were photographed with the emulsion side to the camera).

It appears the indents were made on the film frame of the camera and would appear at the upper left corner of the frame when viewed from the back of the camera.

What was the purpose of these marks?
Were they made by the manufacturer or added post production by the owner?
Do we know of any cameras from this period that would have such marks?

MattKing · May 16, 2022

Thread title edited slightly, in hopes of drawing attention to your interesting question.

Agulliver · May 17, 2022

Do they vary from frame to frame?

AgX · May 17, 2022

Two purposes come to my mind for custom made notches:

-) linking the film to a certain sample of camera, resp. its owner

-) indicating time of exposure, for instance the year (w. each year a notch added)

The latter makes most sense to me.

Romanko · May 17, 2022

Agulliver said:
Do they vary from frame to frame?

No, they are very consistent.

AgX · May 17, 2022

What puzzles me though is, brought back to size (4x6cm) the notches are that small that it would be difficult to make them in that straightness. It would though be possible if one presses a knive of respective angle into the material of the gate.

Romanko · May 17, 2022

AgX said:
-) linking the film to a certain sample of camera, resp. its owner

-) indicating time of exposure, for instance the year (w. each year a notch added)

I thought about (1), but (2) is also a possibility.

The negatives were inside a Boot's Film and Print Wallet suggesting they were developed by Boot's and not the photographer. I had a closer look at the images and they seem to be family snapshots with common amateur mistakes like missing the focus (a lot) and tilting the horizon (sometimes). There's one accidental exposure depicting someone's foot and one double exposure. That said, the photographer was quite good with the exposure times.

I don't shoot 127 film and don't have any cameras in that format but my experience with 120 type folders from this period tells that the camera was of a simple type. I'm also puzzled.

Donald Qualls · May 17, 2022

There were 127 cameras with selenium cell auto exposure, which might explain the good exposures with bad focus and framing. Kodak made several models with this, though I can't find reference to any in full frame (4x6).

I suspect those marks were in the camera frame from manufacture as an aid in printing to ensure the film was emulsion toward the print. They're located the same as notches in sheet film -- upper right if the emulsion is facing you.

ic-racer · May 17, 2022

The marks can be used in forensic analysis, as similar marks were used famously to verify photographs of Oswald. Or they could simply let the photographer know which camera was used to make the photograph.

(1) The photographs CE 133-A and B were, taken with Oswald;s Imperial Reflex Duo Lens camera. (138) Every camera has unique regularities that are reflected on the margins of negatives made by it. Shaneyfelt determined that the margin irregularities of the original 133-B negative were identical to those of a negative that he exposed in the camera.

AgX · May 17, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
I suspect those marks were in the camera frame from manufacture as an aid in printing to ensure the film was emulsion toward the print. They're located the same as notches in sheet film -- upper right if the emulsion is facing you.

But then such marks exposed on rollfilms would have been known.

Romanko · May 17, 2022

ic-racer said:
as similar marks were used famously to verify photographs of Oswald

Thanks for this. I read a few papers on forensic examination of cameras but was not aware of its use in Oswald's case.
What is the reference for the text you cited?

Romanko · May 17, 2022

AgX said:
But then such marks on rollfilms would have been known.

The negatives are 80 or 90 years old, enough time to lose this knowledge.

Maybe the marks could be used in the printing process to somehow simplify the adjustments of the enlarger. Suppose you need to enlarge the negative by an exact scale, say 5 times. You can potentially measure the distance between the notches on the projected image and adjust the enlarger until you get the right scale. I am not sure why would one want to do this, though.

Another thought is that these are register marks that can be used for composite printing from several negatives. Trichrome is another possibility. Both techniques would be well over the skills level of an average amateur photographer in 1930s.

DWThomas · May 17, 2022

I rather doubt it, but were there any 127 cameras with removable magazines?

IIRC some owners put notches in the frame masks to be able to identify which negatives came from which back/magazine on 120 SLR sorts of cameras. (Useful in determining which back has the light leak, etc.)

Donald Qualls · May 17, 2022

There were at least two 127 SLRs, but they were 4x4, and don't go back that far.

MattKing · May 17, 2022

IIRC, 127 long rolls were used in some school photo cameras, but those don't look like school photos.

cmacd123 · May 17, 2022

some older cameras have a set of ridges on the film plane plate. those may have produced such marks. without knowing the Camera involved it is hard to tell.

cmacd123 · May 17, 2022

it is fairly clear that this is a artifact of the Camera.

Down Under · May 17, 2022

I use 16 exposure inserts in my two Rolleiflex Ts. These have small 'indent' marks which I believe were intended as a trimming guide when cutting down 4.5x5 cm slides to 'super slide' format.

I believe negatives/slides from Hasselblad film backs also show such an indent. It has been a long time since I owned a 'blad, and I cannot easily locate any negatives made by one of mine 10 or more years ago, so I really do not know about this.

It may not have been the case in a 1930s camera - my two 'flex Ts date from the mid to late 1960s, when slide film was commonly in use, unlike 30 years earlier when almost all roll films in use were B&W.

Obviously this is not the case with your camera, but it's the only thing I could think of - those indents are guide marks of some sort, but surely not for color slides.

Another poster has suggested these were "a artifact" - I think he meant "artefact", which my online dictionary defines as "an object made by a human being, typically one of cultural or historical interest." So this is unlikely.

Romanko · May 17, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
There were at least two 127 SLRs, but they were 4x4, and don't go back that far.

In Europe Exakta VP would be the most common SLR producing full frame 4x6.5 cm negatives.

DWThomas said:
I rather doubt it, but were there any 127 cameras with removable magazines?

I have just learned about Exakta C which could take both film and plates. Thank you for the hint. It was a big apparatus and the plate configuration was technically a tiny view camera with ground glass focusing.

cmacd123 said:
it is fairly clear that this is a artifact of the Camera.

I agree that the notches in the negative are produced by the camera rather processing or the film itself.

ozmoose said:
These have small 'indent' marks which I believe were intended as a trimming guide when cutting down 4.5x5 cm slides to 'super slide' format.

Supports our hypothesis that the notches are made by the manufacturer. Thank you for this information.

ozmoose said:
typically one of cultural or historical interest

It certainly captured yours and my interest both from historical and technical perspectives. As such, it is an artefact by definition (artifact in American English).

Here is the photographer and a close up of the camera case. It must be a folding camera judging by the case. I also noticed that the focus is not uniform, compare the corners of the shot. The lens appears to be tilted diagonally, a common fault of folding/strut cameras.

Don_ih · May 17, 2022

ozmoose said:
"a artifact" - I think he meant "artefact"

Those are different spellings of the same word.

An indication of which side faced the emulsion would have been handy with some older films, which did not have a glossy side. I have some old negatives where it's hard to see which side has the emulsion.

Romanko · May 17, 2022

Don Heisz said:
An indication of which side faced the emulsion would have been handy with some older films, which did not have a glossy side. I have some old negatives where it's hard to see which side has the emulsion.

Having digitised 57 negatives I can tell you that the notches do make it easier to work with the negative. This also applies to traditional darkroom use. Finding the emulsion side of the film under the safelight might be difficult.

ic-racer · May 17, 2022

Romanko said:
Thanks for this. I read a few papers on forensic examination of cameras but was not aware of its use in Oswald's case.
What is the reference for the text you cited?

Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy Volume 6
By United States. Congress. House. Select Committee on Assassinations

A little off topic, by chance I came across those records years ago when I got my Minox. An internet search of Minox directed me to those files because a Minox was found in Oswald's garage in a tin can. Once I started reading those reports, it is hard to stop. In fact people spend their lifetime looking for a conspiracy in those records

Agulliver · May 18, 2022

I am certainly of the opinion that this is something caused by the camera frame/mask area rather than native to the film.

AgX · May 23, 2022

We got a current thread on such notches at the film gate of Hasselblad backs, and the Kodak 35 too had such notches.

AgX · May 24, 2022

The west-german King Regula Picca C got such notches too (at least in a variant of its).

The Agfa Optima Sensor series got one notch.

They are getting more.... maybe a new collectors' segment...

Frame edge marks on old 127 negatives

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