FP4 - no N+2

Doc W · Jan 19, 2016

I recently was testing FP4 in my relatively new (used) Jobo. I was using HC-110, dilution E and found that after about 11 minutes, I was getting no more contrast. There is no N+2.

Has anyone else had similar results?

eddie · Jan 19, 2016

If you're getting close, selenium toning the negative may give you the boost you need.

markbarendt · Jan 20, 2016

You may be reaching exhaustion.

How many films?
What size?
How much developer in the tank?

Doc W · Jan 20, 2016

Mark, only one 5x7 sheet film, and I put in a double batch of developer, so I don't think it was developer exhaustion.

markbarendt · Jan 20, 2016

https://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j24/j24.pdf

If I did the capacity math right you need close to 300ml working solution per sheet at Dilution E

Athiril · Jan 20, 2016

I've had no trouble with this in almost any developer I've used on FP4+, but I've never used HC110 on it.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 20, 2016

Ask yourself first if you really need to develop the negative to N+2 instead of using some other means to get the extra contrast you need such as using a higher paper grade, selenium toning the negative, switching from a diffuse light source to a condenser one, etc. I have found that grain and tonality are better with some combination of N+1 and the above things. When all else fails, I bleach and redevelop in a staining developer to give me more contrast. I rarely develop more than N+1 anymore.

FWIW, when I was testing some Kodak films years ago, I found that higher dilutions enabled me to get more contrast. I ended up using a 1+63 dilution (a bit more dilute than dilution E... but not that much). Maybe you can try that. Do make sure you aren't exhausting the developer before you reach the contrast you want by testing once with more developer than you need.

Best,

Doremus

Ian Grant · Jan 20, 2016

Doremus Scudder said:
FWIW, when I was testing some Kodak films years ago, I found that higher dilutions enabled me to get more contrast. I ended up using a 1+63 dilution (a bit more dilute than dilution E... but not that much).

That seems to be the wrong way around, my experience with a few developers is exactly the opposite with developers like HC110, Ilfotech HC, Rodinal etc.

With Rodinal I always used 1:50 with N-2, 3:100 for N and 1:25 for N+2, so I'd suggest that a lower Dilution would be beneficial in DocW's case maybe dilution B with HC110. You need a dilution that gives the desired contrast rather than just developing for longer.

Ian

Lachlan Young · Jan 20, 2016

Ilford has times & dilutions for achieving higher contrast with FP4 using PQ universal - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427123181979.pdf - see p.4 - tried it out for unrelated purposes with HP5 & it was quite impressive.

Stronger developer is generally going to be the answer.

Xmas · Jan 20, 2016

Ian Grant said:
That seems to be the wrong way around, my experience with a few developers is exactly the opposite with developers like HC110, Ilfotech HC, Rodinal etc.

With Rodinal I always used 1:50 with N-2, 3:100 for N and 1:25 for N+2, so I'd suggest that a lower Dilution would be beneficial in DocW's case maybe dilution B with HC110. You need a dilution that gives the desired contrast rather than just developing for longer.

Ian

Hi Ian
Rodinal 1:100 @20C stand more than 60 mins will get contrast up and toe speed but if the film is getting to DMax...
Noel

Ian Grant · Jan 20, 2016

Lachlan Young said:
Ilford has times & dilutions for achieving higher contrast with FP4 using PQ universal - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427123181979.pdf - see p.4 - tried it out for unrelated purposes with HP5 & it was quite impressive.

Stronger developer is generally going to be the answer.

Yes, I used Ilford PQ Universal and the May & Baker (Champion) equivalent Suprol for work with FP4 and Ilford Ortho sheet film. I also tested it with 35mm FP4 and found it gave superb results and very fine grain at a dilution of 1+29 (1:30) but with a loss of film speed compared to other developers I was testing.

Ian

Athiril · Jan 20, 2016

Xmas said:
Hi Ian
Rodinal 1:100 @20C stand more than 60 mins will get contrast up and toe speed but if the film is getting to DMax...
Noel

In my experience that dropped detail on FP4+ as opposed to 1+25 (measured from 55 lp/mm to 40 lp/mm).

ic-racer · Jan 20, 2016

I was using HC-110, dilution E

Why?
How much developer were you using. Your symptoms are developer exhaustion, that is not any place I'd like to be.
I recommend trying various paper grades when printing. Saves some juggling of film development. Once a film is over-developed it can't then be under-developed.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 20, 2016

Ian Grant said:
That seems to be the wrong way around, my experience with a few developers is exactly the opposite with developers like HC110, Ilfotech HC, Rodinal etc.

With Rodinal I always used 1:50 with N-2, 3:100 for N and 1:25 for N+2, so I'd suggest that a lower Dilution would be beneficial in DocW's case maybe dilution B with HC110. You need a dilution that gives the desired contrast rather than just developing for longer.

Ian

Ian,

That would be my normal instinct as well. However, looking back at my tests now, I couldn't get a decent N+2 out of TMX with HC110 dil B. It just kept bumping up the toe, i.e., increasing overall density and fogging the shadow values with extended development. Using a 1+63 dilution solved the problem. Developing time was appropriately longer.

However, the OP should probably experiment with different dilutions (and developers for that matter) if he really wants an N+2.

Best,

Doremus

Xmas · Jan 20, 2016

Athiril said:
In my experience that dropped detail on FP4+ as opposed to 1+25 (measured from 55 lp/mm to 40 lp/mm).

Thanks for the diagnostic.
I'd not have expected magic.
I do blur rather than detail, so I'd not notice that.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 20, 2016

Doc W said:
I recently was testing FP4 in my relatively new (used) Jobo. I was using HC-110, dilution E and found that after about 11 minutes, I was getting no more contrast. There is no N+2.

Has anyone else had similar results?

I got N+2 in D761+1after 16min.

DREW WILEY · Jan 20, 2016

It's pretty common knowledge that this film can only be plus-developed so far. But it depends on the actual color of the light, so you might
get a different result from one deep filter to another. That is something rarely mentioned but still important at times. In medium speed films
you can get a fairly high gamma with TMX 100 in TMRS developer, or in TMY400 if you don't mind the higher speed and a little more grain.
Otherwise, modern thin emulsion films aren't as malleable as the old thick-emulsion gold standard of Super-XX. Still, all this depends on
your personal definition of +2.

FP4 - no N+2

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