Fotospeed Warmtone Paper Developer

hughennis · Dec 11, 2009

I've been experimenting with the above combination and find that the warmth effect goes from being non-existent to being very noticable . The container says the warmth effect is most pronounced at 1+30 dilution and high temps (20C + ) .
However last night I got the warmest ever effect on my paper (esp on Pearl) near the end of my session .(I loved it BTW) . By then the developer was at its coldest (I had mixed with warmish water) . I suppose it was nearly exhausted as I had done about eight 8x10 's at this point .

Anyone have any experience of this combination ar this happening?
Was it a kind of lith chemical effect ?
Should I be bottling some of the old developer like "old brown"??

Please dont reply "use another paper" - I know actual warmtone paper will give a greater effect -I'm just curious as to why this happened and is it repeatable. Thanks guys (and gals)

Rick A · Dec 11, 2009

Hugh, I've been using the same Dektolwith, with replenishment, for the last six months. It looks like strong coffee, works incredibly well, nice warm tone(slight staining?) and still gives deep blacks, maxes out between 90-120 seconds. Keep playing and experimenting, and never stop being awed by the results.

Rick

hughennis · Dec 11, 2009

But whats causing this Rick? is it the fact that the developer is nearly worn? and can the "old brown" method be employed? For the record the prints are toned rather than stained( ie base is still white) .Thanks for your prompt reply Rick - Happy Christmas - Anyone else?

Rick A · Dec 11, 2009

You know Hugh, I couldn't begin to tell you how or why,it just works. Its something I'm trying. I've been printing for over 40 years, and finally got tired of believing what Kodak tells me. Like I've said to others-"keep playing and experimenting, and never stop being awed by the results".
Merry Christmas to you and your family, and may the new your bring you joy and happiness!

Rick

Anon Ymous · Dec 11, 2009

Hugh, here are some facts about print tone that I've gathered from various APUG threads:

Paper emulsions have grain; we don't see it because it's not enlarged. Larger grain gives cooler results, finer gives warmer. Of course, warmtone papers have specific emulsion which promote warmth, but "normal" papers can also be "tweaked". Grain size can be altered to some extent with proper development. Softer developers (low pH) can give warmer results, harder ones cooler (high pH). Restrainers can also be added to alter print tone and potassium bromide is the usual choice for warmtone developers.

So, by further diluting a developer, you get a solution with lower pH, which can give warmer results. I've used Neutol WA in it's standard dilution (1+7), but also absurd ones like 1+39. The later gave much warmer results, at the expense of very long development times. Cheapo Fomaspeed Variant needs 1' with the 1+7 dilution, but needed 5' in 1+39 to give convincing blacks.

Additionally, bromide (which is what restrains developer's activity) is released as a byproduct during development. That might be what gives warm tones in Rick's case. I'd say by all means try the "old brown" method and replenish at will.

3e8 · Dec 11, 2009

According to the Darkroom Cookbook, it's primarily a function of the excess bromide that builds up in the developer as more and more sheets are run thru it. It is even noted that you can use old developer to dilute fresh developer, up to 50% (v/v) old developer to achieve a warmer tone.

hughennis · Dec 15, 2009

Now we are getting somewhere! thanks

seoirse · Dec 15, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
Hugh, here are some facts about print tone that I've gathered from various APUG threads:

Paper emulsions have grain; we don't see it because it's not enlarged. Larger grain gives cooler results, finer gives warmer. Of course, warmtone papers have specific emulsion which promote warmth, but "normal" papers can also be "tweaked". Grain size can be altered to some extent with proper development. Softer developers (low pH) can give warmer results, harder ones cooler (high pH). Restrainers can also be added to alter print tone and potassium bromide is the usual choice for warmtone developers.

So, by further diluting a developer, you get a solution with lower pH, which can give warmer results. I've used Neutol WA in it's standard dilution (1+7), but also absurd ones like 1+39. The later gave much warmer results, at the expense of very long development times. Cheapo Fomaspeed Variant needs 1' with the 1+7 dilution, but needed 5' in 1+39 to give convincing blacks.

Additionally, bromide (which is what restrains developer's activity) is released as a byproduct during development. That might be what gives warm tones in Rick's case. I'd say by all means try the "old brown" method and replenish at will.

Well that's a bit of very useful information!

Thanks indeed.

I will be printing next weekend and I need warm results so I must try diluting my developer.
I'll let you know how I get on.

Thank You.

hughennis · Dec 15, 2009

I dont think dilution alone is sufficcent - there must be exaustion.

hughennis · Dec 15, 2009

Tried it with Ilford Multigrade DEv ...didnt work.

Ian Grant · Dec 15, 2009

hughennis said:
I dont think dilution alone is sufficcent - there must be exaustion.

You definitely don't need exhaustion. Along with dilution you need increased exposure. Look in any old book of formulae at warm tone developers and all the companies made them and recommended increaed dilution and increased exposure to get even greater warmth.

Modern warm tone papers, with no Cadmium, don't respond quite as well to this technique, but they still respond significantly.

Ian

Anon Ymous · Dec 15, 2009

hughennis said:
Tried it with Ilford Multigrade DEv ...didnt work.

Try with a warmtone developer. Standard Ilford Multigrade is a neutral tone developer, which has benzotriazole and potassium bromide. Benzotriazole is an organic restrainer/antifogant which gives cooler tones. Developers which only use potassium bromide for the same purpose are more likely to give warm tones. That said, I've seen MG dev giving somewhat warmer results, but that was after a significant amount of paper had been developed, so bromide content had increased and developer was some days old. It was active; blacks were black. The tone was slightly warmer and contrast just a bit softer, less than half grade. That was a conclusion from a side by side comparison between freshly mixed and old developer.

Anon Ymous · Dec 15, 2009

One more thing about tone shift caused by bromide release...
If bromide release is significant, so is working solution volume. The working solution volume in my previous post was 500ml. The more bromide is released in low volume of developer, the greater the effect. If I had used 1l of developer, the difference in bromide concentration would be smaller and tone shift could be insignificant.

hughennis · Dec 15, 2009

Unfortunately I didnt bottle my last batch of developer - will the bromide be realeased by just storing? or do I have to actually develop in it? ie. if I mix up a litre and leave it for a week or two will bromides be released?

Anon Ymous · Dec 15, 2009

hughennis said:
Unfortunately I didnt bottle my last batch of developer - will the bromide be realeased by just storing? or do I have to actually develop in it? ie. if I mix up a litre and leave it for a week or two will bromides be released?

No, it needs to be seasoned with paper. Bromide is in the emulsion and released during development. Keep in mind though that different papers will give different results and above all, use a warmtone developer.

Rick A · Dec 15, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
No, it needs to be seasoned with paper. Bromide is in the emulsion and released during development. Keep in mind though that different papers will give different results and above all, use a warmtone developer.

This makes sense to me, as I have several boxes of Kodabrom II that I have been playing with. I haven't tried any other paper with my now espresso colored developer. I have been replenishing from a bottle of stock solution that was mixed last March(its nearly as dark as my working sol.)Results are still positive.

Rick

pentaxuser · Dec 15, 2009

Hugh You might want to look at Silverprint's website. Martin Reed lists a good number of warmtone developers, some of which seem unique to Silverprint. I had a thread elsewhere on this general subject and Les McLean recommended I try D163. I confess I haven't as yet but it looks to be quite a cheap developer to try. At worst it will only be marginally warmer but will still develop prints satisfactorily so won't be a waste.

Phoning Martin might be a worthwhile action to take. There may be better than D163

pentaxuser

Fotospeed Warmtone Paper Developer

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