Fotospeed Sepia toner, additive concentration question

Fintan · Dec 30, 2007

I'll be toning a print later today and looking for a warm hint of sepia. Paper is Ilford Warmtone, FB

The instructions give the following colours. Yellow/Brown, sepia, Mid Brown etc.

The yellow/brown is 5mls pf Part III per L of working Part II and I'm wondering if I should start with less than 5mls ?

Any thoughts?

Dave Miller · Dec 30, 2007

You can alway add a little more, but you can't take it out once it's in.

tim rudman · Dec 30, 2007

Fintan said:
snip: Paper is Ilford Warmtone, FB

The instructions give the following colours. Yellow/Brown, sepia, Mid Brown etc.

The yellow/brown is 5mls pf Part III per L of working Part II and I'm wondering if I should start with less than 5mls ?

Any thoughts?

Not all papers give the full range of colours Fintan (see the grid examples in my Toning book) - they can vary greatly in the range available.
Also, the less additive you use, the more likely is tonal loss in the highlights - i.e. less is redeveloped, and as it is yellowish it looks less again.
It all depends on what you want of course, but I wouldn't use as little as 5ml with MGWT - personal taste. If you do want that effect you may need to compensate a little more in the printing.
Why not make yourself 4 identical prints and bleach each for identical times but add a little more additive each time you tone, as Dave suggests - to cover the whole range offered - and see which appeals to you for that image on that paper in that developer.
Tim

Jon Shiu · Dec 30, 2007

In my experience, using the ST20 sepia toner with Ilford Warmtone often results in a sickly yellowish tone (I usually mix for mid brown). For a hint of warm with regular Ilford, you would bleach for a short amount of time, possibly less than a minute, wash and then tone. Wondering if selenium or viradon would give you the tone you want? You might contact dlin, he seems to get great results with Ilford Warmtone and sepia. Good luck!

Jon

Brook Hill · Dec 30, 2007

I have found it very difficult to get a hint of sepia with Ilford MGWT fibre even with a 15 seconds bleach diluted to 25ml to a litre of water. It seems to fully tone no matter what the bleach dilution and time is. I done a small test print and toned it for 5 min. in selenium 1+10 and this seemed to give it a slight sepia tone. As others have suggested, a few tests before commiting your finished print would be a wise move.

Tony

Fintan · Dec 30, 2007

Thanks for the replies, I was in the darkroom and didnt see them until now.

I think I got the tone I wanted but had to abandon ship as something aggravated an eye infection I have

But anyway, after about 12/14 attempts I found a weak bleach solution worked with 15ml of additive to give me something close to the tone I wanted, I'll see properly when they dry.

Thanks again,

Fintan

tim rudman · Dec 30, 2007

Brook Hill said:
I have found it very difficult to get a hint of sepia with Ilford MGWT fibre even with a 15 seconds bleach diluted to 25ml to a litre of water. It seems to fully tone no matter what the bleach dilution and time is. I done a small test print and toned it for 5 min. in selenium 1+10 and this seemed to give it a slight sepia tone. As others have suggested, a few tests before commiting your finished print would be a wise move.

Tony

One must remember that warmtone papers not only give a richer sepia colour than neutral or cool tone papers, they also bleach much quicker and so, for a given bleach time, the toning may extend further down the tonal scale in the print and so can look more obvious.
However, it is always possible to split sepia tone with any paper if you dilute the bleach enough and time the bleach carefully. I frequently split sepia tone MGWT with no problem.

It is true that Selenium will also give brown or red-brown with many warmtone papers, but the effect is quite different, especially with split toning. Sepia, through the bleach, works from the highlights down and selenium works from the shadows up. So split toning with sepia will give warm light tones on cooler (depending on the paper how cool or warm) lower tones. Selenium with a warmtone paper will give warm brown low values and the normal tone for that paper/developer in the upper tones.

There is no reason why one should not do both on the same print of course.
Tim

Brook Hill · Dec 31, 2007

tim rudman said:
One must remember that warmtone papers not only give a richer sepia colour than neutral or cool tone papers, they also bleach much quicker and so, for a given bleach time, the toning may extend further down the tonal scale in the print and so can look more obvious.
However, it is always possible to split sepia tone with any paper if you dilute the bleach enough and time the bleach carefully. I frequently split sepia tone MGWT with no problem.

It is true that Selenium will also give brown or red-brown with many warmtone papers, but the effect is quite different, especially with split toning. Sepia, through the bleach, works from the highlights down and selenium works from the shadows up. So split toning with sepia will give warm light tones on cooler (depending on the paper how cool or warm) lower tones. Selenium with a warmtone paper will give warm brown low values and the normal tone for that paper/developer in the upper tones.

There is no reason why one should not do both on the same print of course.
Tim

Thanks Tim, you have explained why my sepia toned prints on Ilford warmtone seem to go further on the sepia tone after spitting with selenium. I guess its the warm brown tones given by the selenium you refer to which appeared to me as an extension to the sepia effect. I was looking for a deepening of the blacks which I guess I wont get with this paper.

Tony

tim rudman · Dec 31, 2007

Brook Hill said:
Thanks Tim, you have explained why my sepia toned prints on Ilford warmtone seem to go further on the sepia tone after spitting with selenium. I guess its the warm brown tones given by the selenium you refer to which appeared to me as an extension to the sepia effect. I was looking for a deepening of the blacks which I guess I wont get with this paper.

Tony

Not necessarily Tony,
the Dmax will increase, but will already occur just before most of the colour shift, but you can't really see it in the wet print. For cooling off and Dmax enhancement you will need to tone briefly in a dilute solution and judge when dry. It won't be strikingly obvious but is worth it.
Tim

Fotospeed Sepia toner, additive concentration question

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