Fotospeed bleach

naugastyle · Dec 27, 2009

I bought the vario odorless sepia kit, and am finding this bleach--when mixed according to directions--to be insanely fast. I have to pull prints at 5 seconds or so, and since it's working so fast, it continues bleaching while I rinse. And it bleaches so much that some highlights are lost--as in, they don't come back even with several minutes in the sepia (I know, it's supposed to only tone to completion in a minute anyway, was just trying to be certain). I should mention I'm going for a very subtle tone, which is why I don't want to bleach too much, but still, I shouldn't be losing clouds at 5 seconds, should I?

I'll try a weaker dilution but really was just wondering if it's just this brand or if all bleaches work this fast. Even the directions call for a minute or more in the bleach, which seems impossible (left the directions at the darkroom though, so I'm not sure).

jvo · Dec 28, 2009

fomatoner

I haven't used fotospeed and do use fomatoner sepia toner - also a 2 step toner - it certainly works at a more oderate rate and well... fyi.

Pete H · Dec 28, 2009

I use a tenth of the concentration they recommend. It´s much more controllable.

cheers
Pete

tim rudman · Dec 28, 2009

I often use it, but because I want a split toned effect to HLs alone I use at 10% - 20% and it works very well.
Bear in mind that warm tone papers bleach much faster than neutral or cold tone papers and you might need it stronger for them, especially if you want to tone the shadow tones too.

Also, I time the bleach to the second and keep records because it always bleaches a bit further than you can see in the dish, so test first and go by the clock. You can be very accurate that way.
Tim

naugastyle · Dec 28, 2009

Thanks, guys!

Yes, Tim, I was hoping to just lightly tone the highlights as well. I'll try diluting as Pete recommends, and make extra duplicates for testing the bleach time. Usually (because paper starts getting expensive with all these tests!) I make three at the most--untoned, selenium, and a split-tone, but I'm realizing I should do multiple split-toned versions to try to get something repeatable.

Right now when I yank the print out of the too-strong bleach I run it under the tap (where it seems to continue bleaching even so). Could I stop the bleaching any other way? Like HCA, or if the bleach is very weak, is a tray of water enough to stop it from bleaching further?

tim rudman · Dec 29, 2009

naugastyle said:
Thanks, guys!

Yes, Tim, I was hoping to just lightly tone the highlights as well. I'll try diluting as Pete recommends, and make extra duplicates for testing the bleach time. Usually (because paper starts getting expensive with all these tests!) I make three at the most--untoned, selenium, and a split-tone, but I'm realizing I should do multiple split-toned versions to try to get something repeatable.

Right now when I yank the print out of the too-strong bleach I run it under the tap (where it seems to continue bleaching even so). Could I stop the bleaching any other way? Like HCA, or if the bleach is very weak, is a tray of water enough to stop it from bleaching further?

No, HCA won't help stop the bleach - but I always use it as part of the pre-bleach washing cycle in order to minimise the tonal loss that occurs with bleach-tone cycles.
My procedure for an upper split tone on warm tone paper is to use either 10% or 20% stock bleach (depending on the paper and the effect), pull it by the clock straight into an adjacent deep sink of water and immediately hose off the surface fast. Visible bleach is gone in 1 or 2 seconds. I flip the print and hose the back and then wash until all trace of bleach colour is gone. As the bleach is very dilute it stops quickly.
It is important to have a consistent regime so that your results are both predictable and duplicatable every time, then it is easy to modify the bleach time to shift the split to just where you want it.

Marco B · Dec 29, 2009

tim rudman said:
I often use it, but because I want a split toned effect to HLs alone I use at 10% - 20% and it works very well.
Bear in mind that warm tone papers bleach much faster than neutral or cold tone papers and you might need it stronger for them, especially if you want to tone the shadow tones too.

This is my experience too. For example, the standard Ilford MGIV fibre paper is very slow in bleaching (can take minutes for full bleaching, even in the insanely strong recommended bleach solutions), while Ilford MGFB Warmtone fibre paper, like you experienced with your paper, can heavily bleach in just seconds.

Use a dilution that suits your needs and paper type.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

Thanks guys! I'll try 10% this weekend. It just seemed odd that the instructions stated it would take MUCH longer to bleach than I was experiencing even at the recommended strength.

What confuses me is that I thought "full bleaching" was still OK, because the sepia was supposed to bring back all the bleached parts, but in sepia color. Isn't full bleaching how people get sepia like this?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Even though I wasn't using very strong sepia and had only bleached a little, I was surprised that the clouds I'd bleached too much never came back in the toner.

Schlapp · Dec 29, 2009

naugastyle said:
Thanks guys! I'll try 10% this weekend. It just seemed odd that the instructions stated it would take MUCH longer to bleach than I was experiencing even at the recommended strength.

What confuses me is that I thought "full bleaching" was still OK, because the sepia was supposed to bring back all the bleached parts, but in sepia color. Isn't full bleaching how people get sepia like this?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Even though I wasn't using very strong sepia and had only bleached a little, I was surprised that the clouds I'd bleached too much never came back in the toner.

Well, since the snap you link to was one of mine, I can tell you I did bleach it nearly all the way back. I also overprinted with a pre-flash before split contrast the contact print from paper neg.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

So everything, all shades of grey you saw on your print before bleaching, came back as sepia tone? Does it depend on the type of sepia (mine's the vario kind) or strength of the tint (I have it mixed pretty light)?

Marco B · Dec 29, 2009

naugastyle said:
So everything, all shades of grey you saw on your print before bleaching, came back as sepia tone? Does it depend on the type of sepia (mine's the vario kind) or strength of the tint (I have it mixed pretty light)?

That you don't get back all of the shades, is really strange. I have never seen that happen in my highlights. They always come back, albeit of course in the lighter sepia tone.

Are you sure you adequately fixed and subsequently washed your prints before dumping them in the bleach?

If fixer is still present on your print, I could imagine the fixer removing part of the silverbromide that is being formed (next to silverferricyanide that isn't affected by fixer) during the bleaching step. And thus part of the image, especially the very light highlights with little silver and little silverbromide being formed during bleaching.

Silverbromide and silverferricyanide are the "intermediate" products that are formed during bleaching, and as you probably know, fixer is supposed to remove the remaining light sensitive silverbromide from a normally processed print.

If fixer is still in sufficient quantities present, that might explain the unwanted result you describe (at least if fixer activity is unaffected by bleach, which I assume here, but don't know for sure)

Marco

Jon Shiu · Dec 29, 2009

I have had the same sepia toning problems with the highlights not coming back (ST20, MGIV FB), even with a light bleaching. I always dilute at least 50%, but will try more dilute in the future. I have had loss of density in even the lighter mid-tones and especially in heavily burned-down sky areas. I don't know what the answer is. Does anyone know if too bright of room light could have an effect?

Jon

patrickjames · Dec 29, 2009

Besides what others have said above, you may want to try adding salt (sea salt, not table salt) into the bleach. I mix my own bleaches and this is something I do. You could also add KBr, but salt is easier to find. This is also a way to change the resulting tone of the print as well. Mixing your own toners is a piece of cake. You may want to look into it. As an aside, I have never found the tones from thiocarbamide to be very pleasant compared to sulphide. The downside of course is the sulphide stinks......

It just occurred to me also, are you toning outside or inside? If the bleached print gets too much light, it won't easily convert in the toner. You will see this effect the most in the highlights. I usually tone at night because of this.

naugastyle · Dec 29, 2009

Sea salt, specifically? Is kosher salt OK?

I'm toning inside, and am now also wondering about Jon's post. My darkroom is 1-hr commute from home, and where I live I really don't think it would be practical to tone outdoors (and I don't have enough ventilation in my apartment). At my darkroom I have the option of an overhead fluorescent light or the light I usually flip on to inspect prints, a normal incandescent flood light. Don't know the wattage off the top of my head, but it's definitely aimed directly at the sink while the fluorescent gives more even light (and is a couple feet further).

patrickjames · Dec 29, 2009

I am not Jewish so I couldn't tell you if Kosher salt is sea salt, but if it doesn't have iodine it should be fine to use. I have to say that I am not a chemist and I use quite a bit of "salts" in my bleaches, but I get great results that I haven't seen elsewhere. It was the fruition of an enormous amount of time spent experimenting. If you haven't bought Tim Rudman's toning book yet you should. He covers all of the basics and if you want to go further, it is a great foundation for understanding what is going on when you tone. If you are creative you can extrapolate from there.

To answer your lighting question, toning under an incandescent light should be fine. Keep it dim. I was just recommending avoiding sunlight or the like. Also make sure you wash well between the bleach and the toner, although I have a friend that doesn't do this on purpose and the resulting tones he gets are quite beautiful. If you wash too much on the other hand it can be detrimental. I usually wash until the yellow is gone from the water and then double the time.

Marco B · Dec 30, 2009

One other thing, I do remember reading in the instructions that came with my bleach / redevelop thiourea toner sepia kit, that the older bleach / redevelop toner formulations, based on a smelly sulphide redeveloper, could indeed lead to an undesirable loss in density. But the "new" formulation of the kit I am using with thiourea wasn't supposed to do this, which I can confirm from using it. The older formulations required you to "over-print" the image, which is a big nuisance in my opinion, if I had needed to do it for sepia toning. I do not with my kit.

Now your kit is also a thiourea odourless based toner, but maybe it might still be worth to try another brand to see if you still have the same issue...

naugastyle · Dec 30, 2009

Or maybe I'll give over-printing a try and see what happens...don't want to let a $40 kit go just yet .

Patrick, why is washing the bleach too much detrimental? At this point because I've been burned by overbleaching, I've been putting prints straight under the tap instead of into a tray of water, just to get rid of the yellow as quickly as possible. I've been trying to stop the water as soon as I don't see any more yellow.

Marco B · Dec 30, 2009

Your method sounds good, I do the same washing away the bleach, no problem

Schlapp · Dec 31, 2009

Ah, I over-print [print darker] with a pre or post flash. That way there is some tone in what are the highlights. So, when you bleach it back the highlights come back with some tone tone. I use whatever sepia I happen to have.

naugastyle · Jan 6, 2010

Thanks, I understand now. If I lowered contrast and overprint I might achieve the look I would like, namely--toning the paper. The really light highlights in skies or elsewhere simply stay white (or paper-colored), and it just didn't occur to me before that I could add more for the toner to work with.

(Although that still doesn't totally explain how clouds--that were quite grey, not exactly highlights--disappeared and didn't return).

Anyway, last weekend I did 10% bleach and wow--it took forever. After 5 minutes or so I gave up, dumped it and switched to 50%. Still a bit slow if I'm standing there staring at the clock to time it (more than 2 minutes). But I am at least getting an idea of it now.

Oh, and I have also concluded that Oriental Seagull VC doesn't bleach well. I feel like it takes forever (in the weaker dilution) to see any change in the highlights, but once they go, the midtones immediately start turning red.

Marco B · Jan 7, 2010

naugastyle said:
Anyway, last weekend I did 10% bleach and wow--it took forever. After 5 minutes or so I gave up, dumped it and switched to 50%. Still a bit slow if I'm standing there staring at the clock to time it (more than 2 minutes). But I am at least getting an idea of it now.

Diluting bleach can indeed be a bit counter-intuitive. Like you experienced, a 10% bleach solution (compared to manufacturer suggestions) does not necessarily equal to a 10x times longer bleach process... bleaching times seem to be getting longer and longer the more you dilute.

I still think you need to try some other type of bleach / redevelop sepia toner once after you have finished using this batch... Losing your highlights and needing to overprint should not be necessary, as I have never had the need with my kit and toning of divers paper types (Ilford MGIV FB / RC (also Warmtone), Kentmere VC Select / Fineprint, AGFA MCC FB / RC)

tim rudman · Jan 7, 2010

Nancy, Papers do vary greatly both in the available colour range they will offer (often far short of the described range in toner instructions) and this depends on both the paper emulsion AND the developer used to process the paper. Interesting results may also sometimes be achieved by 'cross processing' warm tone papers in cold tone developers and vice versa. (There are examples of this and other tweaks in my Toning Book).
This leads onto the sub thread going on here about loss of tones on sepia toning. There is generally some degree of density loss and when slight this may be seen only in the highlights. However it can be so slight with some dev/emulsion combos that is may go unnoticed. Warm tone papers dev'd for extra warm tones by a warm tone developer can also lose substantial density even in shadows.
It is important to clear fixer ('hypo') from the paper of a FB print efficeintly with hypo clearing agaent and good washing (preferably after a 2-bath fixing regime). This is because residual fix left behind can react with the bleach to give 'Farmers solution' which is an irreversible bleach.
If this is a problem with your paper and process technique you can compensate by slightly over printing, or flashing the paper, or giving a little extra Gr.00 exposure to add extra density primarily to the lighter tones.
If you want to give a soft sepia tone to a white area (bald sky or snow for example) you can over flash (i.e. fog) deliberately and this will come back as a hint of uniform colour.
Hope this helps.
Tim

naugastyle · Jan 7, 2010

Thanks to both of you for all your advice.

Tim: I'd forgotten that someone also helpfully PM-ed me about the possibility of residual fixer causing the irreversible bleach--thanks for the reminder! Although I do use HCA for about 5 minutes and a fairly long water rinse afterwards, I haven't actually performed any checks for remaining fix.

Will definitely try for the hint of uniform color next session!

Marco: I'll definitely consider getting a different sepia kit after this one (or perhaps just a different individually-sold bleach). The one where my highlights disappeared was actually MCC. Thanks!

tim rudman · Jan 7, 2010

naugastyle said:
Thanks to both of you for all your advice.

Tim: I'd forgotten that someone also helpfully PM-ed me about the possibility of residual fixer causing the irreversible bleach--thanks for the reminder! Although I do use HCA for about 5 minutes and a fairly long water rinse afterwards, I haven't actually performed any checks for remaining fix.

Will definitely try for the hint of uniform color next session!

Marco: I'll definitely consider getting a different sepia kit after this one (or perhaps just a different individually-sold bleach). The one where my highlights disappeared was actually MCC. Thanks!

Re your last comment above, I use this kit often and don't have a problem so I don't believe the fault lies there. I have seen the problem with F'speed and many other products too, including home brews (v easy and cheap to make BTW) when solutions have been stored for re-use or with 1-step fixing w/ot HCA, hence I stopped both these practices a long time ago.

naugastyle · Jan 7, 2010

Thanks again, Tim. It's always good not to buy extra materials if they're not needed! Anyway, I've been considering the benefits of two-bath fixing for a while and happen to be headed to Adorama later today thanks to an absent boss...so I guess this is a sign to pick up more fixer and hypo-test .

Fotospeed bleach

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