Fotoman 4x5?

dcelfving · Feb 8, 2006

Hello all - I'm interested in exploring large format photography, but have always held off as I'm very much a point and shoot, street photography kind of guy. So I'm kind of excited about the Fotoman 4x5 camera. Apparently it's not been released yet, but you can read all about it at Badger Photographic and see it up close at the Dead Link Removed site.

What do you large format folks think of it? What would be a good lens for street shooting? Is helical focus just standard "twist" focus or am I misunderstanding something?

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

BradS · Feb 8, 2006

Wow, $700 for a box? There is, apparently, no bellows nor any movements. Seems like a lot to me. Seems like a person who was even marginally handy with tools and some patience could do as well by fashioning a box out of wood and adding a Graflok back to it. Just my 2c worth though.

Troy Ammons · Feb 8, 2006

dcelfving said:
Is helical focus just standard "twist" focus or am I misunderstanding something?
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Yes, but you realize that there is no focus assist or rangefinder. Also you have to buy a new cone and a new helical for every lens.

IMO you are better off shooting a super graphic hand held. It has interchangable cams, rotating back, all metal, movement etc. Its a full featured LF camera but you can still shoot it hand held.

that is what those cameras were made for. Hand held press photography.

agGNOME · Feb 8, 2006

I think for street shooting you may find it lacking because there is no rangefinder...so it is scale focusing. This is what I gathered from looking at the specs some time ago. Now, if you used a wide angle lens the scale focusing wouldn't be a big deal. Press cameras like the graphics do exactly the same thing and more, except for the convenience of helical focusing and size.

MattCarey · Feb 8, 2006

agGNOME said:
I think for street shooting you may find it lacking because there is no rangefinder...so it is scale focusing. This is what I gathered from looking at the specs some time ago. Now, if you used a wide angle lens the scale focusing wouldn't be a big deal. Press cameras like the graphics do exactly the same thing and more, except for the convenience of helical focusing and size.

I have a ~210mm lens in a helical focus mount. I think it was intended for closeup/macro. I could work out a focus scale for it and be on my way for a lot cheaper.

That said, who knows--this Fotoman could work well for some people.

Matt

Dave Parker · Feb 8, 2006

For my money, I would pick up a good Crown Graphic and shoot like the press photogs of old, I know there are always more options, but it is really hard to beat a Crown or a Bush Pressman for this type of shooting.

Dave

dcelfving · Feb 9, 2006

Thanks for the feedback! The Speed Graphic and Crown cameras look great, but quite bulky (though I've learned that WeeGee shot with a Speed Graphic which is quite an endorsement). My attraction to the Fotoman, however, is based on it's compact size and apparent sturdiness.

It'd fit nicely in my photo bag, you know? I've another camera that requires scale focusing, so that's not prohibitive (apparently, however, there is a ground glass back available) and I don't foresee using anything more than a "normal" lens.

In any case, I've got plenty to think about. I'll probably hold off for a long while until I have a chance to physically see one.

pelerin · Feb 9, 2006

dcelfving said:
Thanks for the feedback! The Speed Graphic and Crown cameras look great, but quite bulky (though I've learned that WeeGee shot with a Speed Graphic which is quite an endorsement). My attraction to the Fotoman, however, is based on it's compact size and apparent sturdiness.

It'd fit nicely in my photo bag, you know? I've another camera that requires scale focusing, so that's not prohibitive (apparently, however, there is a ground glass back available) and I don't foresee using anything more than a "normal" lens.

In any case, I've got plenty to think about. I'll probably hold off for a long while until I have a chance to physically see one.

Hi,
I very much like the fotoman concept. Firstly, there are other options. Perhaps take a look at http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/504433.html for another budget take on the same idea. Also Cambo, Silvestri, and Ebony have pricier offerings.

I think your needs will define what works best for you. If you want to shoot people, if rangefinder focus would be a plus and if you have very little need for truly wide lenses then a press type camera would probably suit you well. In addition, if you get one with a focal plane shutter it eases the use of barrel lenses which can be a cost saver up front. On the other hand if scale or gg focus is ok, your subejct matter is not in motion and you want to use wide lenses then a "wide" style camera has something to offer. The prices I have seen for the various components of the fotoman system seem quite reasonable, especially compared to its "competion" (e.g., the cambo wide). Pick one and get shooting, if it is not the right solution to your problems you are going to find out much more quickly in the field than discussing it in the abstract.
Celac.

Charles Webb · Feb 9, 2006

The Speed Graphic is heavier than the Crown, both have rangefinder focusing and ground glass. Moving subjects were never a problem for either camera. They both have a reasonably accurate sports finders. The Speed has a top speed of 1000, the Crown 500. They are not very compact however.

The Fotoman with it's wide angle lens requires some thought concerning converging perspective and "keystoning" in architecture. Would be very poor choice for portrait type images. Would excell as a party snap shot grabber. In my minds eye would be poor choice for fine art photography! Nothing wrong with helical focus, Hasselblad has seemed to do ok with it. I personally feel it is to specialized for me to use as an all round camera, so it has very little interest to me. Fotoman would be great conversation piece for some, and with the cost with a couple more lenses will give the owner a source of the "bragging" rights some seek!

Have fun what ever you choose,
Charlie.......................

Willie Jan · Feb 9, 2006

the shen hao 4x5 costs $485 at www.shen-hao.com.
But you will need a tripod but will have movements...

Why would you buy 4x5 and use it as a 35mm?

Ted Harris · Feb 9, 2006

Willie ... where do you see prices on the Shen Hao website ... I just went and looked all around and found none. The price in the US is $595.

Frank Petronio · Feb 9, 2006

Funny how "the convenience of 35mm" and "quality of the 4x5 negative" keep camera designers from Gowland to the Pola convertors to the Chinese busy building simple box cameras over and over again. Graflex got it 99% right back in the 1920s with the hand held, rangefinder focused Crown and Speed. If you find a nice example - for around $200 if that - you'll have something that will outperform all the simple boxes.

Folding the lens up into the camera body - and packing a simple box - makes so much more sense than swinging an unprotected helicoil lens around...

John Kasaian · Feb 9, 2006

I wouldn't want one simply for being labelled with the name "fotoman" ---I mean, how sexist is that? Maybe "fotoperson" would be more acceptable ---unless of course these cameras are actually built by someone named Joe or Wally Fotoman !;-)

dcelfving · Feb 9, 2006

I'm certainly not interested in bragging rights - just the ability to work with a large format negative.

Frankly, the idea of using a large format camera in a 35mm fashion is very exciting to me. The ability to print at a truly large scale, to aggressively crop without losing quality, etc. is what keeps me thinking about the Fotoman.

But I'm still in the very early phases of my photography. I've only recently learned how to work in a darkroom and have been taking it seriously for just over a year. So there's plenty more to do with my 35mm cameras. Still, I'd like to explore large format shooting soon (no sense putting if off, really). I'll definitely check out the other options mentioned in this thread before making any choices.

David H. Bebbington · Feb 9, 2006

Frank Petronio said:
Funny how "the convenience of 35mm" and "quality of the 4x5 negative" keep camera designers from Gowland to the Pola convertors to the Chinese busy building simple box cameras over and over again. Graflex got it 99% right back in the 1920s with the hand held, rangefinder focused Crown and Speed. If you find a nice example - for around $200 if that - you'll have something that will outperform all the simple boxes.

Folding the lens up into the camera body - and packing a simple box - makes so much more sense than swinging an unprotected helicoil lens around...

This is very true - I have an example of another stab at this idea called the GranView, which is made of cast resin but has roughly the same features (helical focusing mount, interchangeable nose cones). It also has a protector over the GG with a magnifier in it, so you can focus on the GG by putting the camera to your eye.

The idea of these cameras appeals in principle but I found this camera to be of limited use - the only practical lens was a 90 mm (I bought a 65 mm lens cone but this vignetted), any longer lens and I found myself really missing camera movements. Cameras of this style of course have their uses for aerial photography, possibly use in a high wind, but I wouldn't pay full price for one - my GranView came at a very good price from a friend who had had it for review.

Interestingly, the GranView maker also offered a similar camera for 8x10" - I wonder if he ever sold one?

paul ewins · Feb 9, 2006

My take on the 45 and 810 fotoman cameras are that they will be best suited to street photography. Load it up with 400 film, stop down to f32 and set the distance to 20 - 30 feet. Find your "decisive monent" then point and shoot. You'll get a lot less DOF than a Lecia but the method is the same. If you are after handheld, walk around photography then a lightweight ready-to-go camera is the ideal tool.

Pretty much a one trick pony though, because for anything else I can think of there is a much better alternative. I can't see it being particularly useful for fashion work unless "slightly out of focus" or "camera shake blur" becomes the new look. Get a Speed Graphic, use it for a while then sell it on when you know what you need.

Charles Webb · Feb 9, 2006

Paul,
Why a Speed over a Crown? I know of no street photographers using barrel lenses. The Crown is much lighter, and designed to be a point and shoot kind of rig. Just wondering what I am missing here?

Charlie............................

Frank Petronio · Feb 9, 2006

With a speed you can use some of the fast glass like the Aero-Ektar f/2.5 lens (see David Burnett's photojournalism or this site (http://www.johndesq.com/graflex/index.html). It requires more than careful focusing of course, it's not for hip shooting.

I don't know about shooting 4x5 ASA 400 film street style and zone focusing, unless it is of distant stuff 50 feet away. I've tried it, but around Upstate NY I can't shoot much faster than 1/60 @ f/22 on a very bright day. Maybe I should try Palm Springs?

waynecrider · Feb 9, 2006

The Fotoman, also to be offered in 4x10, will have a bellows available as an option, so it will in effect be (depending on final design) a somewhat full featured 4x5 camera without back movements. But beyond that, don't most users of expensive medium format and even 35mm equipment use their samller format cameras without a tilt/shift lens in their bag? And if these shooters want movements just what does it cost to do so, whether thru a Horseman or other front end or a tilt shift lens? Comparing the standard Fotoman to a Graphic would be to me an unfair comparsion. I see the Fotoman as a cheap competitor to the Cambo Wide, or a better unit then the Hobo, not a competitor (at this moment) to every 4x5 with movements. It's use seems to be intended for other purposes, but at least regardless there is the larger negative. The camera, as advertised for future sale, is to come with a helical focus, GG, viewfinder and bubble level + cone.

I own a drawer full of Graphics, but am looking very intently at the Fotoman. I could appreciate a smaller, lighter, less bulky faster shooting camera, if that is truely what it turns out to be, and I can shoot pretty dam good by guess focusing and the hyperfocal method. Graphics are not the be all, to end all, in Lf photography and they are still slower shooting then what I expect the Fotoman to turn out to be. Well see. My overall viewpoint is that at least the format is alive and new products are coming around. That's a plus.

Frank Petronio · Feb 9, 2006

Canham, Phillips, Arca, and Ebony seem to be selling everything they make, so I'm not worried about the industry. Wisner, Linhof and some other companies may fobble but that may be more about their business practices and stale designs. So I don't feel compelled to support a Chinese manufacturer unless it is a great, unique product.

I hope the Fotoman is great. But having tried a few similar cameras, like the Sinar Handy, I gotta tell you -- the Graphic is still awesome in comparison. Try inserting a holder into a Handy/Cambo/Fotoman while doing hand held shots -- it takes three hands. Then try it with a Graphic -- two hands ;-)

What would be truly awesome would be if the Chinese made a modern copy of the Graphic with more movements and an easily adjusted rangefinder, that would work with wide and tele lenses. NOW that would be so much more fun and innovative than another "box" camera.

paul ewins · Feb 9, 2006

Charles, you aren't missing a thing. I'm simply too lazy to type "Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic" and as I use a Speed Graphic myself that is what I naturally refer to. My most recent efforts have been indoor full length portrait shots using flashbulbs, and even with a well adjusted rangefinder I still get the occasional soft neg. Prior to getting the rangefinder fixed I had to use the distance scales and the hit rate was much lower.

For me, the coupled rangefinder is the killer feature of the press cameras. If the Fotoman was a 4x5 version of the Graflex XLRF I'd be much more interested. Without the RF it would just be pure frustration.

JG Motamedi · Feb 9, 2006

If you are set on point and shoot, there are a number of polaroid converts to 4x5 film. I played with a Littman (an APUG sponsor), and it seemed like a nice and easy to use camera, although I hear that they are a quite fragile. Of course, they are also a huge amount of money.

If it were me I would buy one of those now difficult to find Fuji 6x9 rangefinders.

Tom Hoskinson · Feb 9, 2006

JG Motamedi said:
If you are set on point and shoot, there are a number of polaroid converts to 4x5 film. I played with a Littman (an APUG sponsor), and it seemed like a nice and easy to use camera, although I hear that they are a quite fragile. Of course, they are also a huge amount of money.

If it were me I would buy one of those now difficult to find Fuji 6x9 rangefinders.

I would do the same (if I didn't already have one)!

John Kasaian · Feb 10, 2006

For street shooting, I think a Speed or Crown focus at infinity with grafmatics is a swell combination and quite affordable(use the sports finder to compose!) If you wanted a newer camera, you might take a look at a Linhof Technika.

mtnjunkie · Feb 10, 2006

My vote might goes to the busch pressman. It's a little smaller than the graphics, has a rotating back, and a cool parallax compensating rangefinder. It's biggest drawbacks IMO are that it is a bit heavier, and the lensboards are small and harder to come by, but if you don't forsee using anything other than a normal lens, the latter isn't much of an issue. Oh, and they don't have the graflock back.
Oh, yeah. They're cheap too...

Fotoman 4x5?

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