Fotokemika ...

DREW WILEY · Aug 23, 2012

I've been following all this chatter with considerable interest. I've got a fair amt of Efke 25 film in
6x9 format that I've got to start developing tonite. I know of absolutely no other film currently on the market which combines its potentially extreme acuity with such a long exposure scale. It's a wonder film up in the mtns where extreme contrast is common. Pan F is excellent but not suitable for
the same kind of scenes at all. And in large format we have more choice because grain etc is seldom
a worry. If these rumors actually transpire, I certainly hope someone will keep the formula alive, preferably under tighter quality control per dust etc.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 23, 2012

Michael R 1974 said:
Are you sure about that, Ken? Ok we all agree Perez sucks, but who knows who the buyer will be, what kind of slashing they will do to quality control etc.

If the past is any sort of prelude to the future, yeah.

Besides, what's to keep Kodak (Perez and company) from being even more likely to slash quality control on their second go-around than a new buyer would be on their first? Especially if Perez's second chance goes as badly as his first? Putting the division up for sale means you don't want it. Buying the up for sale division means you do want it.

Reading the press release it doesn't look like Perez has changed a thing. Sounds like he has the same vision for Kodak's future after the bankruptcy as he had for the five-plus years before it. And we all saw how that turned out...

BTW, why is Perez still around at Kodak anyway??

Ken

SkipA · Aug 23, 2012

I just bought 10 more rolls of the Efke 25 in 135. Next week, I will buy some 120, may be the IR. I wish I could afford to buy more, but I'll go on like this until it's no longer available.

SkipA · Aug 23, 2012

There are a couple of very active Kodak threads going where the discussions of Perez might fit better. It would be nice if this one could stay focused on Fotokemika.

madgardener · Aug 23, 2012

So let me try to wrap my brain around this...

Kodak is selling its "legacy" imaging division, even though it produces a profit for Kodak.

Meanwhile, Efke, is ending its production of film because their machinery is so old that it can't be fixed for a price that would still allow them to make money. As I understand it, ADOX is moving the slower speed film production to Germany so we will hopefully still be able to enjoy them.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture. Is there anyone out there who can explain this to me, using small words?

Tony-S · Aug 23, 2012

Maybe Efke will buy Kodak's film division.

OK, probably not.

georg16nik · Aug 24, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
I've been following all this chatter with considerable interest. I've got a fair amt of Efke 25 film in
6x9 format that I've got to start developing tonite. I know of absolutely no other film currently on the market which combines its potentially extreme acuity with such a long exposure scale. It's a wonder film up in the mtns where extreme contrast is common. Pan F is excellent but not suitable for
the same kind of scenes at all. And in large format we have more choice because grain etc is seldom
a worry. If these rumors actually transpire, I certainly hope someone will keep the formula alive, preferably under tighter quality control per dust etc.

Same here, I use once/twice a year some rolls Ilford PanF+ loaded in 6x9 or 135 but its different character.
Its a matter of total reset of exposure and developing to come close to the Efke look, and until we still got the Efke available, there is no use to cross the street with a helicopter..

Roger Cole · Aug 24, 2012

madgardener said:
So let me try to wrap my brain around this...

Kodak is selling its "legacy" imaging division, even though it produces a profit for Kodak.

Meanwhile, Efke, is ending its production of film because their machinery is so old that it can't be fixed for a price that would still allow them to make money. As I understand it, ADOX is moving the slower speed film production to Germany so we will hopefully still be able to enjoy them.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture. Is there anyone out there who can explain this to me, using small words?

"It's all screwed up."

Or in a single acronym, SNAFU.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Aug 24, 2012

madgardener said:
fke, is ending its production of film because their machinery is so old that it can't be fixed for a price that would still allow them to make money. As I understand it, ADOX is moving the slower speed film production to Germany so we will hopefully still be able to enjoy them.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture. Is there anyone out there who can explain this to me, using small words?

Efke is ceasing production voluntarily because they cannot make money in selling film and papers anymore. Market prices are way to low for silver based products since about 5 years, especially if your products contain a lot of silver.
Many of our ambitious projects stalled because of this as well.
Repairing the machine is not an option because it makes no economic sense to continue the production after the repair has been done. Not because it can´t be done or there would be no money available (this is simplifying things a bit but in general this is true).

We are not moving their production anywhere. This sad news has hit us suddenly and all we do at this point is thinking about ways what possibly could be done now to deal with the situation. Our stocks will be depleted in about 2 months.

One option is to manufacture a similar film on a small scale with modern technology at a higher price. If it sells at this price, production is sustainable.
This is only possible in our very small factory which we built from pieces of the former Agfa research dept. We are talking quantities here which are a fraction of what efke did and needed to do in order to support their operation in the size it was. They were small compared to Ilford and Kodak but are also quite large compared to us.
For efke this is not an option because on a higher price level turnover will fall and both will lead to the same outcome: Not being able to recover running costs from sales or even think about profit.

Mirko

MDR · Aug 24, 2012

Mirko I for one would be willing to pay more for similar products to EFKE 50 and EMAK Matt emphasis on Matt paper.
If not Efke 50 then maybe an ISOPAN or Super Sensitive Panachromatic substitute

Viel Glück, hoffentlich findet ihr eine Lösung für diese besch...ne Situation.

Dominik

georg16nik · Aug 24, 2012

Same as Dominik, I would be willing to pay more for similar products.

Ken Nadvornick · Aug 24, 2012

But sadly, Mirko is right. Most people WON'T pay more for the same or similar products. Everyone has been conditioned to count pennies like they are made of gold. Even when they are only hurting themselves in the log run. I realize that for some this is out of necessity. No argument in those cases.

But for those that are able to pay more, but just can't bring themselves to do it, well, you get what you pay for. Or won't pay for.

Ken

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 24, 2012

Ken Nadvornick said:
But sadly, Mirko is right. Most people WON'T pay more for the same or similar products. Everyone has been conditioned to count pennies like they are made of gold. Even when they are only hurting themselves in the log run. I realize that for some this is out of necessity. No argument in those cases.

But for those that are able to pay more, but just can't bring themselves to do it, well, you get what you pay for. Or won't pay for.

Ken

I agree with you, Ken. But I have a perspective of both not being able to buy film other than old outdated stuff, or the really inexpensive hot deals at Freestyle, etc to happily shooting (almost) nothing but TMax 400 for a few years. I can honestly say that when I paid more for my film, I appreciated it more, and saw it more as an investment in both myself, and the industry.
If nobody buys the higher priced, but higher quality, products, then we will be stuck with the low quality / low price products that people pay for. It's as simple as that, really.

tempsdepose · Aug 24, 2012

Really sad news!

Jim Fitzgerald · Aug 24, 2012

Mirko, I have been shooting Efke 25 in 8x10, 11x14 and on special order 8x20. Currently the FP4+ is $100.00 US a box more. I'd be willing to pay more to keep the 25 alive. I guess it is how much more? It is my main film and gives me what I need for my carbon transfer work. The look is what I do not want to loose. Hopefully you can keep the 25 alive. I will support it.

silvergrain · Aug 24, 2012

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Efke is ceasing production voluntarily because they cannot make money in selling film and papers anymore. Market prices are way to low for silver based products since about 5 years, especially if your products contain a lot of silver.
Many of our ambitious projects stalled because of this as well.
Repairing the machine is not an option because it makes no economic sense to continue the production after the repair has been done. Not because it can´t be done or there would be no money available (this is simplifying things a bit but in general this is true).

Mirko

Of course I have no pretention to be in the owner's mind, but real estate considerations might not be excluded also from this decision (although not necesseraly in the hands of Efke's owner). This reminds me the fate of Forte. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that Ilford's plant is also under a lease agreement. What appeared a costless solution at the time of the buy-out (maybe the only feasible one, given the cash constraints, I don't know) might create some weakness, as the cost of transferring such a unit may well be a killer.
At first sight, we might think that the fate of our products would be correlated to silver, I'm afraid we have also to take into account the real estate market. :confused:

MDR · Aug 24, 2012

Silvergrain my thoughts exactly Forte killed by the real estate business, Efke might be a victim as well. If they still coat medical films they could coat pictorial film so I don't fully buy the companies excuse. Real estate is really more profitable than the film biz.

Dominik

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 24, 2012

It's very sad that Fotokemika's situation is at the point of diminishing return. When I think of the employees who rely on their operation for a living it becomes even harder to accept. I'm not sure how silver rich their films and papers are in comparison to Foma, Ilford, Kodak, etc, but it is a thing of economy of scale. If you spend more money making the product than you can reasonably charge for it, there isn't much that can be done.

Silver (and other raw materials) has become incredibly expensive, and you can view it as a similar situation to the transportation industry; take airlines, for example. It used to be that jet fuel was rather inexpensive, so the airlines could fly people to all corners of the world with fuel guzzling airplanes at reasonable prices. But then fuel prices went up, and all of a sudden their profits were gone, to the point that they have to stop handing out meals on most flights, charge for suitcases etc - basically put all those costs back with the customers. Now, with more fuel efficient engines and technology it's entirely possible to be profitable again, as difficult as it may seem, but it can be done.
Back to film - silver is like jet fuel - incredibly expensive. So what can Fotokemika do? They don't have enough R&D to redesign their films to contain less silver, so they could increase their prices. But then their market share would shrink, probably significantly. I'm sure there are those who would be willing to pay more, but what percentage of the population that uses the products today (world wide) would be willing to do that? Who's to say they would remain loyal?

I don't think for a second that it was an easy decision to make, but really, where do they go from here?

Here in the US the films are already on par with Kodak and Ilford price wise. But their papers are much lower priced. Even Foma papers are as expensive as Ilford now, so there would be a fair bit of margin expansion possible in their paper range at least. I'm not so sure about the film range, but at least it's unique enough that they aren't directly comparable to anything else. I'm sure they've weighed these options, but it would be very interesting to hear the reasoning from within the walls at Fotokemika.

Sal Santamaura · Aug 24, 2012

silvergrain said:
...it seems to me that Ilford's plant is also under a lease agreement. What appeared a costless solution at the time of the buy-out (maybe the only feasible one, given the cash constraints, I don't know) might create some weakness, as the cost of transferring such a unit may well be a killer...

Around 14 years left on HARMAN's Mobberley site lease. I don't know whether the agreement includes further options. Unless there's a real estate crash around the time that agreement expires, it might indeed become uneconomic (or impossible) to continue Ilford"s operations there. Moving the coating and finishing equipment elsewhere would prove extraordinarily challenging, if it's even possible.

As 2026 approaches, I'll be looking for some indication from Simon (or, if he's retired by then, whichever family member replaces him ) about what the future holds for Ilford film and paper. If things appear as bleak as they do for Kodak film today, my reaction will be similar, namely to purchase and cold store a large quantity. Until then, relax and enjoy all the fine Ilford products!

DREW WILEY · Aug 24, 2012

It's just as much in the interest of commercial/industrial property owners to keep reliable tenants as
it is to have a suitable and affordable facility to lease in the first place. Any going business with a
proven track record would be hard to kick out. A more ominous scenario is more akin to the family
farm - why do all the hard work of farming when you can just make a one-time huge profit chopping
the farm apart and selling the land to some sleazy cardboard-box suburban developer, or someone paving it over for yet another strip mall. Guess it all depends on the neighborhood. But land per se is
one thing, developed industrial sites another - those are a lot harder to simply "off".

mikendawn · Aug 24, 2012

I agree about enjoying the Ilford line of products.. but also, keep supporting EFKE. Lets face it, they are closing. Fine, I'm sure we can all, sadly, live with that. But at the same time, there are employees there that will NOT be able to live with that, and will continue to need our support up until the plant is fully closed, and they have ordered the CEASE AND DESIST to the operations there.

Instead of focusing on ILFORD KODAK and FUJI products, lets keep this in line with the EFKE films...

Support them while we can!

Roger Cole · Aug 24, 2012

If and by how much a product can exceed the prices of its competition and still sell depends in part on how unique it is and how much demand there is for what makes it so. I've never shot Efke film (I have a mostly full box of 4x5 Efke 100 in the freezer, courtesy of a nice gentleman who included it as a bonus with a grafmatic I bought from him, but haven't tried it yet.) In this I've heard people saying Efke is unique and hard to replace. I believe it, but would they pay twice as much for it versus adapting their technique and maybe even their style to Kodak, Ilford or Foma? I don't know, and I bet Efke doesn't either, and they aren't rolling those dice.

Plus we don't know how much more it would have to be. 10% more, people would likely still buy it if they like it. 50% more and they'd have to be pretty hard core to do so. Three times as much and no one would buy much of it. Change the numbers to suit but the principle seems accurate.

I feel badly for the employees too but there's really nothing we can do about that. I don't think buying up remaining stock will help them measurably, or maybe at all. So - buy it up if you like it and want to use it.

madgardener · Aug 24, 2012

Thank you for your answer Merko, while its not what I wanted and was hoping to hear, I understand the reasons. Quite simply, I do not buy a lot of film, for me this is a hobby. I enjoy trying new and different emulsions and seeing what happens when I change this setting or that setting on my camera. Sometimes the results are laughable, other times they turn out really nice. I had just bought a couple rolls of the ADOX 50 art film, and am really looking forward to using them to get a picture of the full moon next week with my new (to me) 400mm lens.

The IR film at US$13 a roll is a little pricey, but it didn't stop me from buying a roll every so often when I wanted to "play" with it. Several rolls of film, and getting lost in the hills of Pennsylvania for a day is a lot cheaper and healthier than many other forms of entertainment.

Hopefully someone,somewhere can/will figure out some way to keep some of this film available in the future, and at the same time keep the employees of Efke employed.

alex.g · Aug 25, 2012

Guys, how much for repair overall? could efke guys open donate site? i can help with money or i can order custom build parts.
please dont close the doors

Mr Man · Aug 25, 2012

I don't really want to diss the retailers but here in the UK it's virtually impossible to buy Fotokemika products. You can buy Efke Infrared, in limited formats from some retailers, and 127 film but you can't get any other films or any of their papers. The only way to get their products is to order from the US, then pay exorbitant postage and import duties. Given you can drive a truck from the UK to their factory in less than a day it is ridiculous we have to get it from the US. If the UK speciality analogue retailers want to stay in business they need to realise that they need to support the whole analogue industry not just their favourite suppliers. If the range of analogue products continues to dwindle so will the amount of young people taking up the process and they will then be left with no business.

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