Fotokemika ...

Pioneer · Aug 21, 2012

Yes. Those of you who have contact, please pass along our feelings of sadness to the employees who are losing their jobs. This is a very sad moment for all of us and the loss of their wonderful products will certainly be felt by many of us. Our prayers will be for the employees and their families.

MDR · Aug 21, 2012

Sad to hear this, with some luck the bosses at Efke might change their minds. I wish their employees the best of luck regardless of the companies decision. Danke Mirko für die Info.

Dominik

Roger Cole · Aug 21, 2012

Ouch. Sounds worse than we expected. I can't believe the cost of the repair is less than $10k - maybe the machine is worth that, and cost that originally, but repair is specialized, parts would have to be fabricated, whatever. If it really were less than ten thousand we could just take up a collection. There are probably at least a thousand people who like their products enough to chip in ten bucks. I'd throw in $100 myself if for no other reason to continue to have the IR and the Silver Artist paper they were coating for Freestyle.

Thanks for the information Mirko. And to the point - charge what you have to. I'd much rather pay more for materials than not have them available at any price. I already use MCC 110. It's a great paper and NOT cheap. It costs more than Ilford MGFB, dramatically so if we compare the 25 sheet packs of MC110 from Freestyle (the only importer I am aware of) with 100 sheet boxes (in 8x10, same principle with different numbers in other sizes) of MGFB from other suppliers. 8x10 MCC 110 comes to $1.28 USD per sheet while MGFB is $0.94 (the former Freestyle 25 sheet packs, the latter B&H 100 sheet boxes) but - I use MCC 110 anyway. I don't use that much paper and my art is important to me. Within reason I will pay what the materials I prefer cost. Now if it were $5 a sheet, probably I would use Ilford or Oriental or something else. But if prices are even similar I will use the product I like best, not the least expensive one. I dare say most photographers doing traditional analog photography will do the same.

brian d · Aug 21, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Ouch. Sounds worse than we expected. I can't believe the cost of the repair is less than $10k - maybe the machine is worth that, and cost that originally, but repair is specialized, parts would have to be fabricated, whatever. If it really were less than ten thousand we could just take up a collection. There are probably at least a thousand people who like their products enough to chip in ten bucks. I'd throw in $100 myself if for no other reason to continue to have the IR and the Silver Artist paper they were coating for Freestyle.

Times are hard for a lot of us, even my APUG subscriber status has expired and it will be a while before I get it back . However I WOULD manage to scrape up a ten spot for that idea

padraigm · Aug 21, 2012

I would put a 100 up also. If it really is as simple as $10000 I am sure the community would kick in for this. I would shoot this over Ilford and Kodak any day. Freestyle says a shipment is due in September.. Will this be the final order filled or is it stock on hand??

Curt · Aug 22, 2012

That's what I thought. It's that simple, just ask. It's really a matter of telling it as it is. Ten thousand people giving a dollar. Most would instantly give more. It's a business culture to write off the end user and sit in a closed room and plan on demise.

We need the product and they make it. To give a donation without expecting anything in return except the good continuation of the manufacture of a worldwide needed product isn't something that's impossible. It isn't charity, it's support.

The bottom line is a company is people and people have special skills and knowledge sets that's valuable to world as a whole.

SkipA · Aug 22, 2012

It's hard to believe that fotokemika could not realize sufficient profit to pay for a $10k repair in a reasonable time. There must be more to it than that. If a $10K repair gets them running again, for how long will it last? How far away is the next $10k repair, and the one after that?

Yeah, I'd contribute too, if it could save Fotokemika.

darkosaric · Aug 22, 2012

Hi all,

I have just called them again and told them that they are people willing to contribute to help with repairs. But it is no help: decision from management is final - profit is so small that is does not pay off to do anything, and plus is that they are on rented place - one extra problem.

If workers are the owners - then maybe this could work, but I am afraid that management decision is final. Worker with who I spoke have said to me to thank you all for your thoughts and willingness to help - but is it over .

Sorry to bring bad news (again).

regards,

Matt5791 · Aug 22, 2012

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
The problem is profitability. Anyones problem at current prices for silver halide products is profitability if you are a manufacturer.
All the films and papers out there are sold at very low prices considering the effort it takes to make them and the costs involved on the raw material side.

Mirko

Then I think the Price should go up.

I think Efke prices are too low for what the product is - might not be a popular thing to say, but if Ilford need to make more profit, prices go up.

Are they afraid customers will desert them if price goes up? In my mind it is better to take this risk than have customers desert them because they have no product to sell!

ADOX Fotoimpex · Aug 22, 2012

I would put a 100 up also. If it really is as simple as $10000 I am sure the community would kick in for this.

It is not a matter of raising the money for the investment. It is a strategical dilemma of profitability. Even if we raised the money for the repair it still would make no sense for them to continue to produce silver products because you cannot generate a profit from selling them in todays market situation with todays level of competition.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Aug 22, 2012

Look on the bright side.

The equipment for slitting and chopping film and paper may go up for sale.

An enterprising person could buy them and set up a small operation making custom film and paper from larger stock from another company. It could work.

PE,
we already have all of the equipment for confectioning at our plant. We can make any format (except 127) from master rolls already.
But it is impossible to make the raw film anywhere in the necessary small amounts to provide the full range of efke again.
Their old machine was capable of making 1000sqm of film without loosing to much emulsion and energy. Still every sqm they coated cost them more than others who make much larger volumes. This is easy to understand but the market forced them to charge not more than the big manufacturers charged for their mass products. We made an aproach and confectioned CHS 100 in Germany to eliminate some confectioning problems. I set the Price like I had to (plus one EUR) and immediately people jumped at me in the forums stating that this price (for a run of 1000 films made because the same people begged us to) would now be higher than FP4 and they asked if I was aware of this and how in the world this could be?
This is what killed efke.
Any aproach to bring back their products or something like their products must be on the basis of low volume, excellent quality, high price.
The problem to solve is the cost dilution in coating small quantities or better keeping these costs down as you cannot dilute them well.
I am very sure of one equation: If the price goes up, sales WILL decline.

Mirko

MartinP · Aug 22, 2012

Mirko, thank you for your communication with us all and for your efforts with Fotokemika.

Is paper pricing just as inelastic as that for film?

I "sort of" recall, from Efke marketing, that the paper was coated in a slightly different way to more modern systems. Sorry for more questions, but are/were the Adox Variotone, Varioclassic and Nuance papers coated by Fotokemika, or on your line in Germany? Is it even possible for it to run on the machinery you have for the (gorgeous) MCC and MCP papers? Maybe a couple of runs per year? It is so 'obvious' that you will have already considered this I'm sure, sorry about that.

Most likely the emulsion, the line and the knowledge will all be gone in a few months though. Does that leave a hole in the market, yes of course - but the global production-volume is probably such that there is still an over supply of paper and pricing will stay 'tough' for all manufacturers.

padraigm · Aug 22, 2012

So we can't sheet panf ?

theoria · Aug 22, 2012

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
We can make any format (except 127) from master rolls already.
Mirko

Why not 127? Not even 30m rolls for respooling? Sure, I can always cut 120 films to feed my Primo and Yashica44, but that would be a PITA.

Curt · Aug 22, 2012

padraigm said:
So we can't sheet panf ?

No, no, and no is the answer I always get. Maybe you can pick up the mantle on this one. Make sure to ask for 11x14.

Good luck! I mean it!

takilmaboxer · Aug 22, 2012

Basic Economics

This sounds like something out of my Econ 1 class at the University back in 1975:
1. Efke's production capacity already exceeds the demand for their products.
2. They are competing in a market with larger producers who have much lower production costs per unit produced.
3. As a result, their profit margin is low.
4. If they raise prices, demand will drop, and demand is already too low. Higher prices will kill them.
5. Finally, they rent the production facility, so there is no incentive for long term investments.
I can't say that I blame them from the point of view of economics.but I'll sure miss the product line. That reduced red sensitivity made for a unique look. Is that simply a function of the dyes used to make silver halides sensitive to longer wavelength light?

madgardener · Aug 22, 2012

So at the risk of asking the obvious, Efke 25,50, and IR820 are gone forever?

darkroom_rookie · Aug 22, 2012

There's still lots of film in their storage room...

Richard Jepsen · Aug 22, 2012

I was hoping the EMAKS would live much longer. It was my baseline paper. And so it joins Forte PWT, Bergger and Oriental whose special atributes were toning/tint, surface and paper contrast.

I will think positive. Ilford Galerie is great in it's own rights. It produces lush deep blacks, a smooth tonal progression, a unique gray tone, and clean whites. Not all my negatives print well on it, but I can learn to calibrate the remaining films to Galerie and other available VC papers.

We all need to mentor someone to pick up anolog photography.

Photo Engineer · Aug 22, 2012

Richard;

It will most likely come down to making your own handcrafted films and papers. You would think that there would be some groundswell in reaction with people inquiring about methods and etc, but things are as usual on this front. Minimal interest. That is about 100 people out of the 50,000 APUG membership.

PE

matti · Aug 22, 2012

Oh no. I planned to switch to Emaks when my Forte stash was gone. I got pink, apricot, red and yellow when lith printing with that.

/matti

SkipA · Aug 22, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Richard;

It will most likely come down to making your own handcrafted films and papers. You would think that there would be some groundswell in reaction with people inquiring about methods and etc, but things are as usual on this front. Minimal interest. That is about 100 people out of the 50,000 APUG membership.

PE

Oh, I'm definitely interested in making my own films and papers. It's just such a daunting task, it's hard to know where to get started. I read the threads about it, but they are filled with chemistry discussions that are over my head. Your book is on my list of near future acquisitions. I'm hoping there is enough practical info in it to help a non-chemist get started.

How did you come up with the 100 out of 50,000 number?

Photo Engineer · Aug 22, 2012

Easy Skiip.

This is the number of people who has said on APUG what you just did, and the current approximate number of APUG members.

Of course, many might not even speak up, but then that is part of the problem. Isn't it?

PE

ADOX Fotoimpex · Aug 22, 2012

matti said:
Oh no. I planned to switch to Emaks when my Forte stash was gone. I got pink, apricot, red and yellow when lith printing with that.

/matti

Well how much Forte do you have left?
With a little luck we are done until then ;-)

http://polywarmton.com/page5/page5.html

JPD · Aug 22, 2012

Mirko, is there any possibility that you will take over some of the machinery? I don't remember if it was you who once said that you wanted to move the production of the Adox films to Germany? You, of course, have more information about this than any of us, so I apologize beforehand if something impossible is suggested.

How about the equipment for cutting and spooling 127-film? It would be very sad if this film format totally disappears from the market.

I emailed Fotoimpex last week about the situation but I got no reply. But I'm glad that you're taking your time to discuss it here.

Fotokemika ...

Pioneer

MDR

Roger Cole

brian d

padraigm

Curt

SkipA

darkosaric

Matt5791

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

MartinP

padraigm

theoria

Curt

takilmaboxer

madgardener

darkroom_rookie

Richard Jepsen

Photo Engineer

matti

SkipA

Photo Engineer

ADOX Fotoimpex

Partner

JPD

Fotokemika ...

Partner

Partner

Partner

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