Forte stop it's production

Sean said:

Not so sure about that, I've seen some jaw dropping images printed on Ilford papers (have a look at some Les McLean prints in the flesh). As for Forte (polywarmtone) it has been my primary paper for a while so will be sad to see it go.

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Why bother arguing with this guy? All he does is make outrageous statements to get attention. The idea that Ilford products are rubbish is beyond absurd and does not deserve serious consideration. He's just a troll. Every post he makes ends up in argument and discord. Now he says he's going to do carbon just to avoid using Ilford :rolleyes: ...

Just another mono-maniac in the Scarpatti tradition...

Cheers, Bob.

uraniumnitrate said:

Yes because this site is dripping of the Union jack and pushing that soulless Ilford!

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Firstly I'd like to say that I am quite upset at the loss of another traditional product manufacturer. I've only used a few papers from forte, which I liked.

I'm not sure how this leads this thread to slagging Ilford products though. Whether you like their range of films/papers/chemicals or not, they are one of the few companies still producing a wide range of very usable and reliable products. I've seen their QC department, and I can tell you it is thorough. I've NEVER had any defective roll of film or paper - any problems I've had whilst using their products has always been down to user error.

As for this site being "dripping of the union jack [sic]" - what a preposterous thing to say. Look at the site sponsors - most of which are in the US, look at the bulk of the membership, mainly US. I think this site is as wholly un-UK-centric as it can be. You might be right if you were to say it was very much in favour of pushing ilford products - but surely you should look at the reasons for this being the case? People like ilford products in general. full stop.

I find your comments bordering on the prejudicial, a stance which has no place here where all people should be made to feel welcome regardless of their nationality.

Well, I asked Mr Gerard, PDG of Bergger about the situation. Here's his answer:
"Bonjour et merci de votre message,
Le sort de Forte n'est pas encore totalement désespéré. Nous continuons nos négociations pour que Bergger prenne le contrôle de l'unité de production. En cas d'échec (les propriétaire actuels ont un projet immobilier sur le terrain de l'usine), nous avons constitué des stocks suffisants pour une période de transition nécessaire aux mises au point de nos produits sur d'autres sites de production. Ces mises au point sur lesquelles nous travaillons depuis plusieurs mois, sont bien avancées. Ce qui nous permet d'envisager l'avenir (quel il soit ) avec une certaine sérennité.
Bien cordialement
Guy Gérard"

I translate for you
"the lot of forte isn't yet completly hopeless;we carry on with our negociations in order that Bergger will take the control of the unit of production.
If it fails, ( the present owner has a property project on the plant soil) we have enough stocks for a transitional period necessary for the perfecting of our products on other places of production.
these perfectings on which we have been working for several months are well-advanced ,which allows to view the future ( whatever it will be) with some serenity. Guy Gerard"

Well, this is a real source

I hope someone else can step up and start producing a 400 speed film ULF. I buy HP5, but I think we are better off with more then one manufacturer, even if they are not a lower cost alternative. I know Kodak did a run of TMY last year, but unitll they step up again, I will consider that a one time fluke. IIRC folks have approached Kodak about cutting ULF sizes in TriX but they do not due special orders of TriX anymore.

Regardless of the quality of the Forte films, I saw their price as an entry point for a lot of folks wanting to try out ULF. You could buy a used camera or build one, buy a pretty nice lens on the used market and either bite the bullet and buy a pair of new holders or be paitent for something used on Ebay or APUG. For 7x17 a sheet the J&C or Freestyle 400 house film (re-packed Forte) was about $3 a sheet. Thats about what I paid for repacked Ilford several years ago from someone like Photowarehouse.

Now the only alternative is Ilford HP5 for a 400 film at about $6.25 a sheet.
Fortunately we still have Efke available in ULF at a more entry level price from Freestyle and hopefully J&C will be back later this year to help keep pricing in check with the ADOX packaging of Efke film. On the downside no 400 film. For someone just getting into ULF or even 8x10, i don't think there is anything quite as helpfull as extra film speed to help get good initial reulsts.

Please understand I am not knocking Ilford. I understand they have a price point they must maintain to justify cutting big sheet film and provide consistent quality. And perhaps we are only kidding ourselves to think we can have any kind of long term pricing of ULF sheet film like Efke/Adox and Forte. I think if we get to a point that Ilford and Kodak are the only game in town, a large pool of potential LF shooters become priced out of the market or at least it starts to makes more financial sense to shoot 4x5 or medium format, scan and make digital negatives for contact printing.

uraniumnitrate said:

Yes because this site is dripping of the Union jack and pushing that soulless Ilford!
I forgot to mention that the makig or creating a paper with soul is even more of the art or that is the art or the soul of the photography! Manufacturing film is easy everybody can do that! Just looked the Chinese. But they won't bother with paper at all.

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Both of those points are unsubstantiated. The one concerning paper manufacturing is totally subjective.

Just another note confirming this, albeit by the time you read it this is 3rd-hand and therefore suspect. I posted a link to this thread on the Zenit Camera Group and got this in reply:

ragnarosk@ZCG said:

I made a phonecall to a representative of Kentmere for the Benelux
(Benelux means Belgium - Holland - Luxembourg, they distribute both
Kentmere and Forte paper here). He told me that they (and he also
knows from Moersch Chemie) are aware of this fact but didn't made it
public yet.
He also told that for the moment there are negiotiations between
Kentmere and the Hungarians concerning the formulas of their warm
tone papers for their new foundry in England.
(but only for their warm tone papers, about the other emulsions for
papers and films he knows nothing).
So this sad news is more than probably 100% true.

He also mentions a serious stock of photographic Forte papers for the
moment.
(imho, indeed this paper has some unique characteristics)

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For the lovers of Forte products, I can only hope that the claim of Kentmere trying to acquire the warmtone emulsion and/or the suggestion of Bergger buying the facilities outright is true and pans out.

Uncle Bill said:

I am starting to become a skeptic when people come out with corporate announcements when the person posting said information hides behind an online alias. It comes down to transparency, I don't know you, what your line of business is and where you fit in the scheme of things.

I am going to wait for Mirko from Fotoimpex to weigh in since he sources his Classicpan film through Forte.

PS Ilford film rocks especially HP5 and FP4.

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There is now a statement by Mirko from Fotoimpex on the Fotoimpex Forum (in German): http://www.fotolaborforum.eu/index.php?showtopic=1590

It unfortunately confirms the basic gist, although he hasn't seen the specific letter yet. He also states that there may be a little hope in the medium term, similar to the statement by the Begger rep. in another post, but mostly things look bleak for the immediate future of paper supply (referring to the Fotoimpex stock of Forte paper).

uraniumnitrate said:

For what? A no good film which only works in sunlight and the souless paper? No thanks I rather go back to Kodak

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You are really losing any credibility you might have had with these comments.

uraniumnitrate said:

Yes because this site is dripping of the Union jack and pushing that soulless Ilford!

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Did you ever hear the saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything"? You could easily state that you didn't care for the results rather than trying to be outrages and insulting. Learn to get along or talk to your therapist.

JMHO

While I love and use Polywarmtone, I originally discovered it as a lower priced alternative when Ilford's prices went up following the restructuring. Prior to that, I used Ilford MG Warmtone pretty much exclusively. I've pretty much come to terms with the fact that our black and white hobby/business/passion is becoming a more and more expensive enterprise.

My first reaction to confirmation of this news is not to wring my hands or get on the web and order a freezer full of PW. My reaction is to order something with "Ilford" written on it. Ill advised comments here on the Union Jack put aside, I've used Ilford films and/or papers since 1973 and have always found them to be outstanding. Since Ilford seems to be the only major player left who gives a damn about traditional black and white photography and, in the process, also seems to give a damn about providing the products we black and white users want to use, it would be foolish not to support them.

The comment about Ilford lacking soul. Horseshit. If Sam Cooke, Otis Redding or Wilson Pickett had ever been black and white film enthusiasts, they would have used Ilford.

Not to take a huge step into the quagmire, but AFA Ilford goes, I personally gave it up about 10 years ago and went back to Agfa, after a rough time with some bad film & paper.

As for their chemistry, I've never really cared for it. Personally I find Kodak and Agfa more to my liking. Their papers were good for a while, but likewise, after having the print wash away during a rinse, that was the end of them for me. Although I did continue to use their postcard paper for a while until it went away.

Forte had some nice papers, but Foma has the edge, and in fact, the Fotokemika papers [Efke] are the closest to old-fashioned Agfa I've seen in many decades. While I hate to see them close, I've still got Foma (full b&w service ie: films/paper/chemistry) to pick from, and Efke for other films and papers.

uraniumnitrate said:

Yes because this site is dripping of the Union jack and pushing that soulless Ilford!
I forgot to mention that the makig or creating a paper with soul is even more of the art or that is the art or the soul of the photography! Manufacturing film is easy everybody can do that! Just looked the Chinese. But they won't bother with paper at all.

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I dont know what this thread really has to do with UK based manufacturers of photo products.

The only thing I can see is that, manufacturing anything in the UK these days is extremely tough let alone something like traditional monochrome products. The fact that Ilford and Kentmere are sucessful speaks leagues for the quality of the management in place and the quality of product.

Aurelien said:

Well, I asked Mr Gerard, PDG of Bergger about the situation. Here's his answer:
"Bonjour et merci de votre message,
Le sort de Forte n'est pas encore totalement désespéré. Nous continuons nos négociations pour que Bergger prenne le contrôle de l'unité de production. En cas d'échec (les propriétaire actuels ont un projet immobilier sur le terrain de l'usine), nous avons constitué des stocks suffisants pour une période de transition nécessaire aux mises au point de nos produits sur d'autres sites de production. Ces mises au point sur lesquelles nous travaillons depuis plusieurs mois, sont bien avancées. Ce qui nous permet d'envisager l'avenir (quel il soit ) avec une certaine sérennité.
Bien cordialement
Guy Gérard"

I translate for you
"the lot of forte isn't yet completly hopeless;we carry on with our negociations in order that Bergger will take the control of the unit of production.
If it fails, ( the present owner has a property project on the plant soil) we have enough stocks for a transitional period necessary for the perfecting of our products on other places of production.
these perfectings on which we have been working for several months are well-advanced ,which allows to view the future ( whatever it will be) with some serenity. Guy Gerard"

Well, this is a real source

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I have to say I was wondering about Berrger

Now there is a new rumour that Bergger going to save Forte! I wish them all the luck from my heart because they really going to need it and I really mean it! But it could be a cover up too until they find a replacement! Just as good that you hear this from me! Bergger never had anything they haven’t got any recipe for coating, not ever, simply they were selling Forte products as is.

Now, I know that the holding company would develop the property for shopping centre, offices and houses because the value of the property is very high and attractive as it’s wooded with pine forest and it’s by the river of Donahue!

They had brought Forte cheap as It’s got a problem two years ago when Kodak and other companies where hit by the digital age!

Those people never had any intentions to own Forte they just waited until their plan was ready to build. They never invested anything there beside that they do brought the company

If Bergger would like to get a company they had buy it for millions of dollars or the cheaper alternative is that they remove the factory complete and find another building to build it up again. Now they got to pay a lot’s of money for all the recipes too as I’m pretty sure they won’t get it for free! This action could take years! Just think about it and if they transport all the machinery to France I would be cost them even more as labour in France is more expensive than in Hungary! Triple I would say!

Now there is another fact that is the size of the production line! Who is going to rebuild it? As it is there is a lot’s of loss and almost impossible to operate these facilities do to a lower demand as it had been designed to produce very large quantities! And there is some age to you must consider too.

I don’t know who is behind Berrger which bank but just remember two years ago when Forte stop the production because the financial difficulties Bergger haven’t got anything to sell! Now do you think they have stock for at least two before they can really begin to produce? Well I think they just do some cover up and coming out with a replacement from somewhere else and I believe some Forte specialties dissaperes from their sortiment! Except of course if they buy all the recepie.

If they have their own recipe than they just could ask Ilford to produce all the stuff they have and I believe that Ilford has a capacity to do that or Kentmere for that very same reason!

Now if you think it's easy and have doupt about this than you can ask the Photo Engineer so you got some strait answer as I know non of you belive me at all!

I mean if they ever had a recepie they can ask anybody as they asked Forte once upon a time!
Why bother to demount and rebuild a factory?

I think, uranium, that you don't want anything right. You want Forte go down, and every hope is denied by you! Stop please.
And I would like to say you: when Forte has difficulties, I kept buying Bergger papers. Bergger papers are different than Forte papers. Yes they are coated in the same plant, but with their own specificities. Idem for films. An exemple? existence of BRF 15. It's the slower film of the market. I dn't know where it is produced, but I am sure it's a unique film, called Bergger, and designed by Bergger photo engineers.
So please stop being "l'oiseau de mauvais augure".

Thanks

uraniumnitrate said:

Just as good that you hear this from me!

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I take it you skipped over Aurelien's post 4 hours and 45 minutes ago containing this information.

By your lack of an apology, I take it you skipped over some other posts too.

Aurelien said:

Well, I asked Mr Gerard, PDG of Bergger about the situation. Here's his answer...

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Aurélien, ça vaut un gros Ouf! cette réponse, merci!

There is absolutely no need to "put down" or say "bad" things about any film product. They all have their purposes and uses. I even like to use Lucky b/w film for a certain look. We need to support "all" not condemn any.

uraniumnitrate said:

1 Just as good that you hear this from me! Bergger never had anything they haven’t got any recipe for coating, not ever, simply they were selling Forte products as is.

2 Those people never had any intentions to own Forte they just waited until their plan was ready to build. They never invested anything there beside that they do brought the company

3 I don’t know who is behind Berrger. If they have their own recipe than they just could ask Ilford to produce all the stuff they have and I believe that Ilford has a capacity to do that or Kentmere for that very same reason!

4 I know non of you belive me at all!

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(Numbers added for clarity)

1 Guy Gerard (proprietor of Bergger) is the former QC manager for Guilleminot. I assume you know who they were. He has their recipe book.

2 This seems extremely likely and is my own analysis too. Indeed, I believe that a couple of years ago the Hungarian owners outbid the other consortium who wished to continue production with precisely this end in mind.

3 See (2) above.

4 This is not entirely surprising, as you refuse to disclose your name; have a history of dissemination; lard everything with hysterical exclamation marks; are gratuitously rude (and anti-British, and anti-Ilford); and are clearly less than well informed about certain aspects of emulsion design.

You have been more or less relentlessly strident, arrogant and rude. As I said in a much earlier post, any rational person would want confirmation. All right, we have now had it. We have also had M. Gerard's assurance that all is not necessarily lost.

As he is a principal, and writes without hysteria, I am prepared to believe him. He may fail; we all accept that. But your endless claims that the sky is falling, and your clear rejoicing in being 'in the know', do not mark you as a source that anyone would automatically trust.

R.

Bob F. said:

Why bother arguing with this guy? All he does is make outrageous statements to get attention. The idea that Ilford products are rubbish is beyond absurd and does not deserve serious consideration. He's just a troll. Every post he makes ends up in argument and discord. Now he says he's going to do carbon just to avoid using Ilford :rolleyes: ...

Just another mono-maniac in the Scarpatti tradition...

Cheers, Bob.

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Bob. The very same name had crept into my mind as well and no doubt into other minds on the site. Unfortunately nothing that was ever said by anybody to help moderate things had any effect on Mr Scarpatti. However in his favour I can say without fear of contradiction that I knew Mr Scarpatti's position as he never failed to recap on it many times over and would have continued to do so, had he been able to, in case I and others had been in any doubt. Just to be sure we understood what his position was, he even continued when we had thanked him and made it plain that we knew his position. He was very dedicated.

I have drawn my own conclusions on what collective effect we are likely to have on this member's( not subscriber, I note) role on this site and I leave others to draw their conclusions.

As for the future I have decided that having bothered him with a few questions in this thread, I will not bother him with any further questions.

It would only add unnecessarily to the effort he already makes to keep us informed of his position.

I wonder where Mr Scarpatti went? I don't suppose that it could be that he has ......?

Nah. I can surely dismiss that as paranoia induced by some strong Indian tea.

Can't I

pentaxuser

Aurelien said:

I think, uranium, that you don't want anything right. You want Forte go down, and every hope is denied by you! Stop please.
And I would like to say you: when Forte has difficulties, I kept buying Bergger papers. Bergger papers are different than Forte papers. Yes they are coated in the same plant, but with their own specificities. Idem for films. An exemple? existence of BRF 15. It's the slower film of the market. I dn't know where it is produced, but I am sure it's a unique film, called Bergger, and designed by Bergger photo engineers.
So please stop being "l'oiseau de mauvais augure".

Thanks

Click to expand...

You wrong! you are very wrong! I hate to see Forte go really, but there is facts you can't ignore, just go beside it! I love Forte more than anything else as I loved Agfa too!
I just tell you the facts I know and questioning things because I know it's very difficult to achive! But if you have one theory which works better or you think the whole thing is just simple please do tell me! And for the record there is many people here staed in this site that the can't see the difference between! Do they lie? Is that what you saying?

I've got friends at the company!!! Don't you ever forget that!

I wish all the luck to Bergger because they going to need it if buy Forte and sussed to put up a production! I would be very happy because than I have a paper which I know inside and out! I have lost Agfa and I know what that means when you know something well and it's dissaperes it's like you got to learn to walk again!
I hope you understand what I mean!

Roger Hicks said:

(Numbers added for clarity)

1 Guy Gerard (proprietor of Bergger) is the former QC manager for Guilleminot. I assume you know who they were. He has their recipe book.

2 This seems extremely likely and is my own analysis too. Indeed, I believe that a couple of years ago the Hungarian owners outbid the other consortium who wished to continue production with precisely this end in mind.

3 See (2) above.

4 This is not entirely surprising, as you refuse to disclose your name; have a history of dissemination; lard everything with hysterical exclamation marks; are gratuitously rude (and anti-British, and anti-Ilford); and are clearly less than well informed about certain aspects of emulsion design.

You have been more or less relentlessly strident, arrogant and rude. As I said in a much earlier post, any rational person would want confirmation. All right, we have now had it. We have also had M. Gerard's assurance that all is not necessarily lost.

As he is a principal, and writes without hysteria, I am prepared to believe him. He may fail; we all accept that. But your endless claims that the sky is falling, and your clear rejoicing in being 'in the know', do not mark you as a source that anyone would automatically trust.

R.

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I'm not anti British at all I just don't like Iford! Is this the same as being anti British? I mean if I don't like something I should keep quiet about it because somebody might think I'm anti British? I have many friends in the UK! My cusin is married with one! And I'm very often there, that is something I wouldn't do if I were anti British.

I speak English freely with a very little dialect but my writhing might not be as I wish! And let's just not talk about my grammar! The histerical thing is because I hate the idea loosing forte! The other thing is I know a lot about Forte as long time user and under during that period been there a lots of friendship created!


to answer your questions

1. I know who they are
2. That is entirely thru but sadly a bid is a bid even there and proboly they have liying about the conteniuty of the operation of Forte. I'ts the property they were after.

uraniumnitrate said:

I've got friends at the company!!! Don't you ever forget that!

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Well if you're so dam friendly with them why did they write you such an impersonal formal letter with news of the closure?? I mean if you're so close to them surely you would have already known there were, at least, new problems with the business and that a major upset was impending.

I dont think you are all that close to the people at Forte, and I think that your knowledge of monochrome phtography is nowhere near as extensive as you make out.

I also don't think you add anything substantive to the discussions here.

srs5694 said:

Just another note confirming this, albeit by the time you read it this is 3rd-hand and therefore suspect. I posted a link to this thread on the Zenit Camera Group and got this in reply:

For the lovers of Forte products, I can only hope that the claim of Kentmere trying to acquire the warmtone emulsion and/or the suggestion of Bergger buying the facilities outright is true and pans out.

Click to expand...

I wish this to be true as I love the forte warmtone paper! I would buy it over Ilfords warmtone any day! Fingers crossed and GO Kentmere!

I am so greatfull for FOMA and Kentmere I tell you that! I also do not like Ilford papers much as it seems that it just lacks silver and the VC stuff just doesn't tone well or do anything well to be honest. I have tried a few of the papers and never rally liked it. I switched to Forte a while back and really liked the paper, now that it is gone FOMA, Kentmere, Fomeika and the new Russian paper will be the ones I will try.

But as far as Ilford as I company am greatful they are around as well as Fuji. All it not lost for sure. I hate to see any one company have a monolopy as that will end up creating price gouging ,so I really hope FOMA , Kentmere and Fuji take on Ilford head to head.

If Fuji would only release their Neopan 400 in sheet film in 4x5 and up that would be something.

Does anyone know if it is more costly to make sheet film than roll film? I know they offer ACROS 100 up to 8x10 but never seen the 400 speed offered in the sheet film sizes.

Now we just need some companies to start making 400 speed film for LF to give Ilford a run for the money and get more products on the market.

Matt5791 said:

Well if you're so dam friendly with them why did they write you such an impersonal formal letter with news of the closure?? I mean if you're so close to them surely you would have already known there were, at least, new problems with the business and that a major upset was impending.

I dont think you are all that close to the people at Forte, and I think that your knowledge of monochrome phtography is nowhere near as extensive as you make out.

I also don't think you add anything substantive to the discussions here.

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Everybody got the same letter that's the standard. Now I don't know what kind of letter you would like to have but this one clearly stated the fact.

I knew this before a long ago but than they still negotiated with the investors and I could't say anything to anybody! I hape you understand this. I hoped this wouldn't happen and on the end those investors would have merci on Forte. But not! Those guy are heavy duty bankers they know were the future leads in this analog phtography! Something happend two years ago and it's falling ever since. Kodak had to sell out two buildings and let 500 people go and if you are a wake you might had heard that anoter if I remeber right 700 or 7000 got ot go during 2007 worldwide.

Now. I talk to them regularly on the phone my connections are my as a long time user! I knew this people for almost 20 years.

The last thing you wrote it's something you just did because you were joking or you just to corrious whom I might be! But I'm not going to rewill my identity and I don't have to prove to you or anybody else for tha matter anything. Please all of you try to understand this. I'm allready member of two other sites with my name that's totally satisfy me!


Sometimes I'm rude as somebody told me but it's because you don't belive me and because people seem to create a lot's of rumours and I don't understand why.

Do you think that I'm going out and ceate romours of this magnitude and forge a letter with names of decent people from Forte some of are a friend just to joke on you? I'm sorry about that if you do. And maybe one more thing. I maybe a rude tuff son of the bitch but I always say what I think even if somebody try to break me head! some have tryed but I'm a dirty biker and know how to defend myself