Forte Paper Problems in Lith

Bob Carnie · May 5, 2007

In the last 3 months I have cracked open 4 boxes of Forte and one box of Berger Paper for Lith printing and have found very strange marks on the paper that has made it impossible to use.
As late as yesterday I used, Forte Polywartone FB Ivory PW17 and the whole box is useless.
The marks look like giant white static marks.
It is not chem problem or envioronment problem as I finished the job on Ilford warmtone and fotospeed immediately after testing the forte in the same chems.
Has anyone else experienced these strange marks lately?
The paper was purchased in two different locations.

Travis Nunn · May 5, 2007

I've had no problems with Forte Fortezo Gr 3 and lith printing.

tim rudman · May 5, 2007

I've experienced various quality control probs at times with Forte in Lith Bob, but not matching those you describe I think. Could you post a scan?
Tim

Bob Carnie · May 5, 2007

Tim
I would post the scan but the subject matter may or may not get me in some trouble *man in chain* domination type image as well it is not my image but that of a client and I would be out of line doing so.
I can only say that it is extremely severe, like tearing up a tissue and spreading it all over the paper during exposure.
I bought batches from Toronto and Freestyle in California with the exact same problem . Total to date 200sheets of paper that is nfg.
I never had this problem with forte or bergger paper but I suspect the last shipment to NA was a delibertl dump of bad paper on the resellers here before the plants closed.with obviously no recourse.
As well I have purchased Fotospeed lately 200 sheets of 16x20. This is the first time the paper came to me with 5 individual packages of 10 inside each 50 sheet box. 10sheets out of 50 or 40 sheets out of 200 were totally different emulsions. I suspect old batches being slipped into fresh batches.
The paper was okay but as you can imagine my problem when printing show prints and within a box of paper the surface goes from egg schell to stipple with a totally different balance.
I expect more from fotospeed but I was under time lines to produce a show and I cannot go after freestyle as they are only re selling a manufacturers product.

tim rudman said:
I've experienced various quality control probs at times with Forte in Lith Bob, but not matching those you describe I think. Could you post a scan?
Tim

tim rudman · May 6, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
Tim
I can only say that it is extremely severe, like tearing up a tissue and spreading it all over the paper during exposure.
I suspect the last shipment to NA was a delibertl dump of bad paper on the resellers here before the plants closed.with obviously no recourse.

I suppose you could be right Bob, but I haven't experienced what you describe so it's hard to comment meaningfully.
Tim

Bob Carnie · May 6, 2007

I would like to put this out there so that anyone purchasing forte paper for lith printing should be aware of this potential problem.
I will save an extra print and get permission to scan the image and then I will pm you the image.

tim rudman said:
I suppose you could be right Bob, but I haven't experienced what you describe so it's hard to comment meaningfully.
Tim

John McCallum · May 6, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
... I expect more from fotospeed but I was under time lines to produce a show and I cannot go after freestyle as they are only re selling a manufacturers product.

Thanks for posting Bob. I've also had serious problems with a box of their lith paper recently and wondered about the possible scenario you've suggested, though my results weren't the same as yours.

Understand your concerns for the innocent reseller, however presumably you wouldn't be happy about them making profit from your misfortune?

Bob Carnie · May 7, 2007

The reseller of forte in Toronto was Eight Elm, they agreed to take the paper back before I purchased the box as I was already aware of this potential problem.
The first two instances my Client had bought the paper and I do not know the results of his complaint.
Was the fotospeed you purchased packaged in smaller packages within the box?
I tried this paper when they first changed the plant from India and without the Cadium. The 10 sheets that were different in each box looked like their first emulsion batch which I tested.
I assume they are slowly culling in old emulsion with the new emulsion. I like each emulsion but prefer the new, and would like to have the chance to purchase them in different boxes.

John McCallum said:
Thanks for posting Bob. I've also had serious problems with a box of their lith paper recently and wondered about the possible scenario you've suggested, though my results weren't the same as yours.

Understand your concerns for the innocent reseller, however presumably you wouldn't be happy about them making profit from your misfortune?

John McCallum · May 7, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
...
I assume they are slowly culling in old emulsion with the new emulsion. I like each emulsion but prefer the new, and would like to have the chance to purchase them in different boxes.

Mine weren't divided into smaller packages Bob, just the one polythene bag within the box. The line problem I had was consistent throughout the sheets. Our problems with the paper are certainly quite different.
If the symptoms you see are associated with the individual bags, then it sounds like your theory fits. Personally I just can't imagine they would try to combine separate batches by hand into indiv. packets.
Regarding the new emulsion, I do prefer it to the old also - and the faster speed is useful.

John McCallum · May 7, 2007

Black line about 1" in from the rhs. (ignore the developing fault).

John.

Bob Carnie · May 8, 2007

Hi John
If that is fotospeed, the new emulsion, I had the exact same problem on my last printing session. My client gave me negatives that were about 3stops over exposed to print . *actually a nice effect with lith, just pound through the negative and really nice effects*
I attributed the black lines to my clients bad neg , I had three that did not go all the length of the paper. Very sharp black lines just like yours.
I will see if I can get a jpeg to post of this image, *right now its up in a show*
Only about 6 sheets had this black line, I will also double check the neg to make sure it is only a wierd coincidence.
Bob

John McCallum said:
Black line about 1" in from the rhs. (ignore the developing fault).

John.

John McCallum · May 8, 2007

Bob Carnie said:
Hi John
If that is fotospeed, the new emulsion, I had the exact same problem on my last printing session. My client gave me negatives that were about 3stops over exposed to print . *actually a nice effect with lith, just pound through the negative and really nice effects*
I attributed the black lines to my clients bad neg , I had three that did not go all the length of the paper. Very sharp black lines just like yours.
I will see if I can get a jpeg to post of this image, *right now its up in a show*
Only about 6 sheets had this black line, I will also double check the neg to make sure it is only a wierd coincidence.
Bob

Hi Bob, that's interesting - yes you must be correct, it would have been fotospeed (sorry). I'd temporarily gone to fotospeed as Fortezo was out of stock here.
I remember the line was def in the paper, the sheet neg wasn't scratched and it was reversable in the print.
Those must have been some pretty long lith printing sessions for you. Actually I like the effect of under exposing and overdeveloping the paper - in some cases. But I haven't gone as far as to overexpose negs in anticipation!
Would be interesting to see the results you had.
Cheers John.

Bob Carnie · May 10, 2007

Hi John

I don't recomend this heavy heavy overexposure on just any neg, but it does have a very old,very spooky quality .
the highlights hold and you pull just as the blacks emerge.
Toning the print also adds to the look.
give it a try sometime and make sure you really pound the light to the neg so it is bulletproof and blast the crap out of the negative in the enlarger. Wide open lens don't worry the look is not about perfection.
best regards
Bob

John McCallum · May 10, 2007

Yes indeed, cheers Bob.

Forte Paper Problems in Lith

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