Forte closure

Ian Grant · Jan 30, 2007

Be careful this reads as if it's based on one persons opinion, and knowledge.

Ian

aldevo said:
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=431015

I don't know if this went to press before or after the most recent article that described the proposal from Bergger and FilmoTec, but the prognosis certainly is bleak.

Yes, it looks like the investors are going to sell off the land. And if they aren't - then they aren't answering the phones to deny it. Just for yucks, I tried dialing the main contact number (and, yes, I do know how to dial international numbers...) a moment before typing this (it's about 8:39 a.m. local time there) and it is indeed disconnected.

uraniumnitrate · Jan 30, 2007

aldevo said:
In case anybody has any doubts, you can attempt to reach Forte using the contact information available at:

Dead Link Removed

You will note that the three names under sales are exactly the three names undersigning the email posted by uraniumnitrate.

So if anybody with a command of "Magyar" wants to make a go of it...

Well guys, the thought is good but those guys on that page are not the cause of this. You may write your thoughts from worldwide but probably its never gonna hit the investors PC.

The situation is this! The investors brought this and if you do by a company at least you are there and spend some time to learn the process and think about how to do it better or solve problems in order to see your investment grow but, this guys hardly ever been at the plant at all.

Now I were looking hard to find an e-mail address to those and I were thinking to put it out for you to express your feelings directly to those but even and no matter how hard I tried couldnt get anything not even what their investment group name is. This is a very sophisticated secret group of people as it seems so because there is isnt anything published about them! Except the Forteinvest RT which of course hasnt got any connection to their original investment group. I have even asked some friends at forte and find out that they hardly ever meet these guys at all. That means no address no phone numbers or e-mail address.

Perhaps just one and that is Bela Kummer the general managers of the plant but hes name is not on that page and he wont say anything. At least that is what I believe!

If I find out something you be the first one to know so you can start to jam their PCs!

Petzi · Jan 30, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
On Photo Net, one person who has left APUG is claiming that Sean closed this thread. So, what are we all doing here?

PE

There was another thread on this topic that was closed, but it was closed by David A. Goldfarb, not by Sean.

aldevo · Jan 30, 2007

uraniumnitrate said:
Well guys, the thought is good but those guys on that page are not the cause of this. You may write your thoughts from worldwide but probably it’s never gonna hit the investors PC.

The situation is this! The investors brought this and if you do by a company at least you are there and spend some time to learn the process and think about how to do it better or solve problems in order to see your investment grow but, this guys hardly ever been at the plant at all.

Now I were looking hard to find an e-mail address to those and I were thinking to put it out for you to express your feelings directly to those but even and no matter how hard I tried couldn’t get anything not even what their investment group name is. This is a very sophisticated secret group of people as it seems so because there is isn’t anything published about them! Except the Forteinvest RT which of course hasn’t got any connection to their original investment group. I have even asked some friends at forte and find out that they hardly ever meet these guys at all. That means no address no phone numbers or e-mail address.

Perhaps just one and that is Bela Kummer the general managers of the plant but he’s name is not on that page and he won’t say anything. At least that is what I believe!

If I find out something you be the first one to know so you can start to jam their PC’s!

Uraniummate,

I'm not blaming any of these three folks or anybody who actually works for Forte Vác itself. Rather, it appears that the operation it shut down and these three senior people in the organization have given up hope of resuming operations..

Forte's headquarters are not in Vác where the plant is located. I do not doubt that the investors who own the company have little contact with the group that runs the operation. It's just a guess, but I suspect the blame lies with the private investors of Forteinvest Tõkebefektetõ Kft in Csurgó. If they have made up their mind to sell off the land to redevelop it, I doubt FilmoTec, or anybody else, can put together an offer that will change their mind. Real estate can offer a large and quick return.

It looks bad for what we would call Forte Vác. Maybe the best hope here is that somebody (Kentmere?) purchases the assets of the film and/or paper production and attempts to restart these operations at their existing facility.

But, as we know from posts from Photo Engineer and others, there are more challenges here than simply securing the finance to make an offer for the formulas and equipment. I would expect that is why FilmoTec and Bergger are attempting to preserve the physical plant in Vác, rather than attempt to move production to Wolfen.

uraniumnitrate · Jan 30, 2007

aldevo said:
Uraniummate,

I'm not blaming any of these three folks or anybody who actually works for Forte Vác itself. Rather, it appears that the operation it shut down and these three senior people in the organization have given up hope of resuming operations..

Forte's headquarters are not in Vác where the plant is located. I do not doubt that the investors who own the company have little contact with the group that runs the operation. It's just a guess, but I suspect the blame lies with the private investors of Forteinvest Tõkebefektetõ Kft in Csurgó. If they have made up their mind to sell off the land to redevelop it, I doubt FilmoTec, or anybody else, can put together an offer that will change their mind. Real estate can offer a large and quick return.

It looks bad for what we would call Forte Vác. Maybe the best hope here is that somebody (Kentmere?) purchases the assets of the film and/or paper production and attempts to restart these operations at their existing facility.

But, as we know from posts from Photo Engineer and others, there are more challenges here than simply securing the finance to make an offer for the formulas and equipment. I would expect that is why FilmoTec and Bergger are attempting to preserve the physical plant in Vác, rather than attempt to move production to Wolfen.

Yes I know that but, the thing is they are my friends and they told me that the investors are not going to get it and not interested to read it either. The matter of fact they havent got any address to this Csurgo Tokebefekteto KFT either and that is not their original name its a cover up. You wont find them at all I have tried but not given up yet!

Now, it shouldnt stop you to write because you never know as they already received a lots of mail from you guys and thats for sure. The best is if you guys address those letters to Bela Kummer and it doesn't matter which e-mail address you use there because they must pass it over and that is the guy who have all the contacts.

Mirko had written here in this thread and what he says there is the situation right now. You guys may have missed this.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

aldevo · Jan 30, 2007

I did read Mirko's post. He did not think the latest proposal would be accepted.

If you follow this link and go to the "English Photo-Lab-Forum", Mirko posted on January 19 that he believes the decision has already been made to sell the property and that there is little hope the existing operation can be rescued.

http://www.fotoimpex.de/forumjump/

This does not mean that another operation (e.g. Kentmere) could not purchase the equipment and formulas and produce the products in another facility. But it would be difficult to do this successfully. As Mirko stated, you can't simply start to coat Forte on Foma's production lines. There are fundamental incompatabilities that would need to be overcome first.

Please let us know if you hear anything else. I will try to contact Bela Kummer soon.

uraniumnitrate · Jan 30, 2007

aldevo said:
Please let us know if you hear anything else. I will try to contact Bela Kummer soon.

Of course I do, than Im off from this site for ever! But, to tell you the truth Im afraid that there is isnt anything left to inform anybody about anything any more as things are pretty much closing up to the demolition stage.

And let me tell you that I who have BSc in photographic sciences and engineering Im pretty much aware of what is possible and not possible in the coating business. There will be no paper as Forte again ever.

aldevo · Jan 30, 2007

I apologize but I am still confused about two points from Mirko's post at:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mirko wrote:

Point 1: Nothing has been decided by the owners of Forte yet and probably won´t be in short term
Point 2: The situation down there is currently of a kind which does not put any pressure on the owner to make anykind of an immediate decision

[More points discussing how other proposals have failed and that it would be a miracle if the fotohuis proposal were to be successful]

But you have said they are closing up to the demolition stage? If nothing has been decided then there is no buyer (if I read Mirko correctly).

It is unusual to demolish a structure on land before that land is sold. The buyer of the land would demolish the plant....unless it is a very unusual arrangement.

Alex Hawley · Jan 30, 2007

aldevo said:
IThis does not mean that another operation (e.g. Kentmere) could not purchase the equipment and formulas and produce the products in another facility. But it would be difficult to do this successfully. As Mirko stated, you can't simply start to coat Forte on Foma's production lines. There are fundamental incompatabilities that would need to be overcome first.

We've already seen one-less-than-successful example in recent years of trying to make a particular paper in a different plant. For Kodak's last run of Azo, the grade 2 was produced at their Canadian plant. It was significantly different in tone, speed, and contrast than previous runs made in Rochester. This was within the same company, just different physical coating facilities. I think expecting Foma or Kentmere to start production right up using Forte's formulas is probably unrealistic.

uraniumnitrate · Jan 30, 2007

aldevo said:
I apologize but I am still confused about two points from Mirko's post at:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mirko wrote:

Point 1: Nothing has been decided by the owners of Forte yet and probably won´t be in short term
Point 2: The situation down there is currently of a kind which does not put any pressure on the owner to make anykind of an immediate decision

[More points discussing how other proposals have failed and that it would be a miracle if the fotohuis proposal were to be successful]

But you have said they are closing up to the demolition stage? If nothing has been decided then there is no buyer (if I read Mirko correctly).

It is unusual to demolish a structure on land before that land is sold. The buyer of the land would demolish the plant....unless it is a very unusual arrangement.

Aldevo

The first one is to be understood that Bergger, Kentmere and the others were there and negotiated on the further production of the Forte. Than they wanted to hire the plant for a half year production or so but, there is a price tag on the whole land with the plant and than the price tag on the recipe and on the machinery. All of those people failed inclusive Mirko to come up with the money they ask for or any for them investor’s acceptable solution. They weren’t interested. Right now no one knows what’s going on any longer except the investors group themselves and they say nothing any longer.

The second to be understood that they get more money out if they develop the land so they don’t feel any pressure at all! It doesn’t cost them anything any longer as the plant stopped to produce and it’s closed down and the people are already unemployed except a couple of those who going to clean up! The factory had its own shop in Budapest they call it showroom and that one is closed too. You see, there is no pressure at all as it's doesn't costing them any money at all any longer. I could say they even make more money out of it as estate and landprices rising rapidly in Hungary.

If nobody pays than they won’t sell! And no one come up with the money yet and I don’t think anyone going to do that either as it’s not cheap! And one more last little thing. All of this poeple lived and nourished from Forte they haven't got that money which is required to invest or buy. It would be Kentmeres rich uncles so far. The question here is how intrested they are?

That’s what I called for the demolition stage. There aren’t any bulldozers outside and waiting but, will be soon.

Of course if I hear something you will know it too.

aldevo · Jan 30, 2007

Thanks,

I understand now. They are preparing the factory to be demolished once a buyer has purchased the land. And it seems very unlikely that the ownership will accept any proposal since they are likely to make more money by simply selling the land. In fact, proposals have been made but they have been rejected.

Let's hope for that "rich uncle". But I imagine Kentmere has enough trouble trying to sell the products it already has...

I have emailed Bergger about what they intend to do about Forte's closure and whether Bergger-labeled products will continue to be available.

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2007

I think it is worth noting here that the equipment in the plant is worth a lot as scrap. There is probably a lot of high quality stainless steel in the coating machines and in the making kettles.

It would probably be profitable to dismantle the buildings just to extract the equipment. At least Kodak has found that to be the case.

As far as different plants go, I've noted before that even using the same plant in Japan, Fuji has publicly stated that they cannot reproduce Velvia 50(? I've forgotten the discontinued film) exactly when they restart making it. Now that is pretty good evidence of the problem that I have spoken of before.

PE

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 30, 2007

In the case of Velvia 50, I think the new film is slightly reformulated. As I recall it was discontinued in part due to some component becoming unavailable, possibly for environmental reasons.

uraniumnitrate · Jan 30, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
I think it is worth noting here that the equipment in the plant is worth a lot as scrap. There is probably a lot of high quality stainless steel in the coating machines and in the making kettles.

It would probably be profitable to dismantle the buildings just to extract the equipment. At least Kodak has found that to be the case.

As far as different plants go, I've noted before that even using the same plant in Japan, Fuji has publicly stated that they cannot reproduce Velvia 50(? I've forgotten the discontinued film) exactly when they restart making it. Now that is pretty good evidence of the problem that I have spoken of before.

PE

As China become a major actor and buy all available steel on the world market it is probably very profitable to sell as scrap that's for sure. The prices on steel wen't up and goes higher and higher day by day. All the steel producing facilities works around the clock worldwide and produce as much as they can and even do is a shortage of steel on the market.

What comes to produce papers and films the only way to do contain the same quality if some one buy the whole plant with the land downthere and just contenue the production as is. (But the production is stoped and it would take time to get back were they were before but not impossible just hard work and a lot's of losses). Otherwise the paper Forte does die's here and that is sad because it live us with nothing, at least nothing for me. So guys, be prepared to carbon.

Photo Engineer · Jan 30, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
In the case of Velvia 50, I think the new film is slightly reformulated. As I recall it was discontinued in part due to some component becoming unavailable, possibly for environmental reasons.

David, thanks for refreshing my flagging memory.

But it does not change the point of the matter. Fuji cannot exactly remake that film whatever the reason.

PE

aldevo · Jan 30, 2007

uraniumnitrate said:
As China become a major actor and buy all available steel on the world market it is probably very profitable to sell as scrap that's for sure. The prices on steel wen't up and goes higher and higher day by day. All the steel producing facilities works around the clock worldwide and produce as much as they can and even do is a shortage of steel on the market.

What comes to produce papers and films the only way to do contain the same quality if some one buy the whole plant with the land downthere and just contenue the production as is. (But the production is stoped and it would take time to get back were they were before but not impossible just hard work and a lot's of losses). Otherwise the paper Forte does die's here and that is sad because it live us with nothing, at least nothing for me. So guys, be prepared to carbon.

Actually, China is now a net exporter of steel. And the current predictions are for steel prices to follow the prices of base metals down in 2007 (Copper has dropped A LOT in just a few months). In other words, we may be heading for over-capacity in steel.

I will be very sad to lose Forte papers, too, as it appears we will almost certainly do

uraniumnitrate · Jan 31, 2007

aldevo said:
Actually, China is now a net exporter of steel. And the current predictions are for steel prices to follow the prices of base metals down in 2007 (Copper has dropped A LOT in just a few months). In other words, we may be heading for over-capacity in steel.

I will be very sad to lose Forte papers, too, as it appears we will almost certainly do

Are you sure about this? See how wrong a man can be. Yeah I know about copper and other row materials but they only begin to fall now. I also have Swedens largest steel manufacturer in the neighbouring town SSAB and they almost selling their entire production to China and the plant run for full gas. Not like the photographic businesses. A very close friend of mine has a big iron work and he told me that prices run high because of China as I recall he said that steel suppliers dont even have fixed price lists any longer as the price changing day by day so they went over to the call in and check basis.

Well Im not into this that much but I know for sure that platinum not getting cheaper so as gold which I use to tone.

Craig · Jan 31, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Sales are plummeting. Truly they are. You barely see the surface of this.

This little tidbit came in the mail today from an economic digest I get:

Camera film peaked in popularity in 1999 when 800-million rolls of reloadable film were sold. Today, the figure has declined to a projected 211-million rolls sold in 2006 as the number of film cameras sold has also fallen.

Thanks a pretty dramatic drop in only 7 years, and I suspect will continue to fall as the masses buy D**** instead of film point and shoots.

Craig

aldevo · Jan 31, 2007

uraniumnitrate said:
Are you sure about this? See how wrong a man can be. Yeah I know about copper and other row materials but they only begin to fall now. I also have Sweden’s largest steel manufacturer in the neighbouring town SSAB and they almost selling their entire production to China and the plant run for full gas. Not like the photographic businesses. A very close friend of mine has a big iron work and he told me that prices run high because of China as I recall he said that steel suppliers don’t even have fixed price lists any longer as the price changing day by day so they went over to the call in and check basis.

Well I’m not into this that much but I know for sure that platinum not getting cheaper so as gold which I use to tone.

We are getting off-topic, but...

Here's a relatively recent (and short) article concerning China's steel exports for October and the year of 2006 through that time:

http://www.ssyonline.com/News_and_Events/index.html?view=2035

This is not contrary to your observation about the Sweedish steel plant. China does not produce "specialty steels" in large amounts - they still rely on companies in the EU, Japan, and USA for these materials. If this facility produces such steel, then it is likely to be running at very high capacity.

As for commodity prices, they are listed in USD - which has been steadily losing value. As a result, the prices have increased considerably in the past 5 years. This affects China, as well as the USA, since their currency is closely coupled to the USD.

Both gold and silver are used as hedges against drops in currency. If uncertainty over the purchasing power of currencies increases - they will appreciate in value. Today, for example, when the US FOMC indicated they were somewhat less concerned about inflation, the dollar fell. And silver and gold all increased in value.

China's stock market fell 5% today, by the way, over concerns about inflation and the country's need to tighten up monetary policy to prevent banks from making too many bad loans. The dollar fell, and silver, gold, and platinum all increased in price. If the dollar drops substantially (always possible) then commodity prices could still increase even if demand for them slows (let's say China really clamps down on their banking system).

So, whether China slows or not, I don't expect your gold and platinum will stop getting more expensive regardless of what steel, copper, or anything else does. That goes double for silver.

There are a lot of people out there in the world worried about the US dollar and other currencies...

JanaM · Jan 31, 2007

Craig said:
This little tidbit came in the mail today from an economic digest I get:

Camera film peaked in popularity in 1999 when 800-million rolls of reloadable film were sold. Today, the figure has declined to a projected 211-million rolls sold in 2006 as the number of film cameras sold has also fallen.

Craig

Hallo Craig,

are these numbers the sales numbers of the US-market? Because worldwide over 3 billions of film rolls were sold in the late nineteens.
So far as I remember the data I've read in a PMA statement, in 2006 an estimated number of about one billion film rolls should be sold. And only the worldwide numbers are relevant for the future of film manufacturing.

Best regards,
Jana

Craig · Jan 31, 2007

JanaM said:
are these numbers the sales numbers of the US-market?

I have no idea, that's all it said. I assumed it was worldwide sales.

uraniumnitrate · Feb 1, 2007

aldevo said:
Both gold and silver are used as hedges against drops in currency. If uncertainty over the purchasing power of currencies increases - they will appreciate in value. Today, for example, when the US FOMC indicated they were somewhat less concerned about inflation, the dollar fell. And silver and gold all increased in value.

.

Now I know that you are right as I have checked this one out too. The SSAB produces special steel and one of their main product is and its unique in the world is HARDOX. I called the friend of mine and he stated that too the fall is only for what we call for junk steel.

About those other metals, they always were bounded to our money in all times.
Just think what one platinum print going to worth in the future when the platinum reserves are gone! Every single print is an investment for the future!

Wayne · Feb 2, 2007

To get this back on topic, I got an email from Begger that they are still in discussion about acquiring the Forte plant. So keep your fingers and toes crossed, unless you are a real estate developer. But I dont want to get anyone's hopes up but mine.

Wayne

aldevo · Feb 2, 2007

Wayne said:
To get this back on topic, I got an email from Begger that they are still in discussion about acquiring the Forte plant. So keep your fingers and toes crossed, unless you are a real estate developer. But I dont want to get anyone's hopes up but mine.

Wayne

Thanks, Wayne.

Robert Vonk of Fothuis had stated both here and photo.net that a group comprising Moresch, Bergger, Fotohuis (Robert's outfit) and FOMA has been formed to try to transfer production of the papers to the FOMA's operation. That, in fact, the plan was not to rescue the Hungarian factory itself.

Did Bergger mention that they have any contingency plans if Forte's operations cannot be rescued?

This is getting very confusing. I've heard of at least two plans involving Bergger...one is the Vonk plan cited above (who suggested on photo.net we might hear something in the next week or two) and one was in the Hungarian press that cited both FilmoTec and Bergger were joining forces to purchase the Forte plant itself.

Is it bad kharma to wish for a real estate crash in Hungary (Forte) and the UK (Ilford)?

Wayne · Feb 2, 2007

I guess I didnt see the other thread because I only activated this forum again a couple days ago. I would rather see production continue on site, since that seems like its the only way to make identical products.

Forte closure

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