Formulary TF-5 Fixing Time with Fiber paper

[Renato Tonelli]

Someone gave me 4 gallons of Formulary TF-5 and will use it very soon.

The recommended fixing time for Fiber paper is 60 seconds. Very short, especially if you split the time between two trays of fixer (30 seconds each leaving very little time to pull the print out of the tray).

Those of you who print archivally and use Formulary TF-5, how do you manage the fixing of fiber paper?
Do you fix 30 seconds in each tray?
Do you use just one tray for 1 minute?
What is your sequence when you use this fixer with fiber?

Thank you in advance.

 

[removedacct1]

Do you fix 30 seconds in each tray?

Yes, exactly. With TF-5, one full minute in the fixer is sufficient. Split that time between two trays = 30 seconds each.

 

[Ulophot]

The instructions from Photographers Formulary, the maker of the fixer, note that it is nearly neutral, not acidic, and that slightly longer fixing will therefore not run the risk of damaging subtle high-value detail. Ergo, don't panic with regard to draining time.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Thank you both for the useful reply.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

60 seconds in "film strength" rapid fixer is the Ilford recommendation as well. TF-5 seems to adopt this approach, which uses a shorter fixing time in stronger fixer in order to keep the fixer from soaking into the paper base and thus shortening wash times.

However if you exceed the 60-second mark by much, more of the fixer soaks into the paper base and takes longer to wash out.

What you really have to do is watch your print wash time. If you make larger prints and use two-bath fixing, keeping to the 30-seconds-in-each-bath limit gets harder. Should you include drain time in the total fixing time? I'm not sure a print is getting fixed well while draining. Nevertheless, it is absorbing fixer into the paper base while draining. So if you have a 16x20, fix for 30 seconds, then drain for 15 seconds then fix in bath two for 30 seconds and then drain again for 15 seconds, you've exposed the print to 90 seconds of fixer soak-in time, which will require longer washing than a print that is rigidly held to just 60 seconds of contact with the fixer.

Note that the only way you really know if your washing is adequate is to do a residual hypo test (Kodak HT-2).

Using two-bath fixation with TF-5 diluted as directed and simply extending wash times when you need to keep the print in contact with fixer longer than 60 seconds is a good way to go

There are a couple of other work-arounds:
First would be just to use the fixer one-bath and really try to keep the time to 60 seconds. This, however, greatly reduces fixer capacity if you wish to fix to archival standards to around 10 8x10s per liter or equivalent. It is convenient, though.

Another approach would be to use the fixer diluted to half the recommended strength (e.g., 1+9 instead of 1+4) and then using longer fixing times. If you two-bath fix, you'll have to use 1.5 minutes per bath. And, of course, you'll have to wash appropriately longer. The upside is that you'll double your fixer capacity compared to the one-bath method.

My regime uses Ilford Rapid Fixer diluted 1+9 (similar to TF-5 at half strength) with 1.5 minutes per bath in a two bath fixing regime. I don't count the drain time in the total fixing time. After a certain point - 90 seconds or so - the paper base is saturated with fixer and trying to keep the time short to facilitate shorter washing is pointless. I then rinse, treat with wash-aid and wash for minimum of 60 minutes.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Doremus - the suggestions help.

For larger prints, I may have to forego draining the print for too long and immersing in running water right away for 30 seconds or so, before I let it sit in the water tray (before the final wash).
I took another look at the Formulary's Tech sheet and lo and behold, it says to "Drain and immediately place in a tray containing 68F running water" (after the fixer).

...and like you said, I will need to test both for proper fixing and proper washing time.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That sounds awfully brief to me. I use analogous TF4 for at least 2 min, in a single bath diluted 1:3 from concentrate. I mix up only enough per daily session, and never re-use it. If under-fixed, certain toners might not cooperate well; that's one of the first symptoms.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Renato,

Don't omit the wash-aid step. It's important.

D

 

[DREW WILEY]

Wash-aid is not needed with these PF "archival fixers". Different than conventional Rapid Fix. Incidentally, I go straight from the fixer tray to a holding tray of water, with a brief hose-off rinse in between. Then from there to toning, and finally into the slot washer for awhile. Nothing is rushed. Premium FB papers are now too expensive to gamble with. But by skipping a second fixer bath and wash aid, overall time is considerably less.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Drew,
The tech sheet for TF-4 says 60 seconds treatment time for fiber-base prints. See here: https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/photoformulary_tech/Formulary TF-4 Fixer [03-0141].pdf

I imagine that the recommended dilution is "film strength" and has the same time as, say, Ilford Rapid Fixer at the 1+4 dilution.

Two minutes is not going to affect the prints, but it would then require the longer wash time.

I imagine TF-4 could be used 1+7 with good results, especially with a two-bath regime (that's what I did when I used it - I find Rapid Fixer more convenient these days).

They also say you can omit the hypo-clear step, but I likely wouldn't.

Doremus

 

[gone]

It d

For larger prints, I may have to forego draining the print for too long and immersing in running water right away for 30 seconds or so, before I let it sit in the water tray (before the final wash).

I have a similar setup. Under my fixer tray is a large storage bin that is filled half way w/ water. It weighs quite a bit. The prints go from the fixer into that, and after there's 4 or 5 11x14's in it they go into the sink and are washed for a while w/ running water.

Then the sink is refilled w/ water and hypo clear and gently agitated for 10 minutes. Drained again, and a final wash under running water for 10 minutes. I used to leave the FB papers in the fix for 2-3 minutes, now I just leave them in there for about 1 minute, No matter what you do, FB papers are going to soak up the developer and fixer quite readily.

Those 4 or 5 prints get hung to dry in a humid bathroom after the shower has been run. For me, that works better than dealing w/ 10 or 15 prints at the end of the print session when I'm tired.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

Renato,

Don't omit the wash-aid step. It's important.

D

Perma Wash is part of my print washing routine routine.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I tend to be more thorough with everything, and deliberately go beyond minimum times. That practice has certainly proven itself worthwhile over time, with respect to print permanence. For one thing, you need to be sure the entire print is fully immersed a sufficient length of time, and not partially floating. That's especially a risk with large prints. My custom slot washers are quite efficient even with moderate flow, so a longer period in there isn't particularly water-wasteful, especially since I'm in a foggy coastal climate and never need to water the garden.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I wholeheartedly agree Drew!

After reading M. Gudzinowicz' "Post Processing..." some years ago, I simply started fixing film for 6-7 minutes total in rapid fixer.

The issue with fiber-base paper only becomes important if one is rigorously trying to keep fixing times short à la Ilford's rapid-fixing/optimum permanence sequence. Some like the shorter wash times afforded by using the stronger fix for 60 seconds max.

I find the time constraint too limiting and too impractical with larger prints and therefore prefer just to fix longer and wash longer.

The deal is, if you're fixing longer, you don't need to waste fixer by using the stronger dilution, one bath, and then discarding it after just a few prints (when dissolved silver hits around 0.2g/l - the "limit" for optimum permanence, which translates to roughly 10 8x10s per liter or equiv.).

Many photographers still don't realize that it's the amount of dissolved silver in the fixing bath that determines when it needs to be discarded. The dissolved silver limits for both "optimum" and "commercial" standards are reached well before the fixing agents themselves are exhausted. The dilution of the fixer (within limits) determines the fixing time; the amount of dissolved silver determines throughput limits.

So, if you fix longer anyway and use a wash aid and wash longer too, there is really no reason to use "film strength" rapid fixer. If you dilute your TF-4 to "print strength," which I believe would be 1+7 (not a recommended dilution but one that ends up with a fixer of similar strength to Ilford Rapid Fixer at the 1+9 dilution), then print throughput, for whatever standard your are fixing to, would be exactly the same, just the fixing times would be longer (2-3 minutes instead of 60 seconds). Just changing dilution doubles your fixer economy, but requires that longer wash. Two-bath fixation would increase economy even more. The trade-offs is fixer economy vs wash time/water conservation.

The issue of print bleaching with extended fixing times is a bit of a myth as well. I've tried to intentionally bleach prints slightly by leaving them for long periods of time in the fixer. Only after 10 minutes or more in an acidic/neutral rapid fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer) was even a tiny bit of bleaching noticeable; really not a timesaver or useful tool. With neutral/alkaline fixers like TF-4 and TF-5, the bleaching would be even less.

Best,

Doremus

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, I use TF4 one -shot (just enough in the tray for a one-day printing session, then discard it). It's somewhat pricey, but heck, what is one's time worth? It's fast, efficient, and proven totally reliable for me. And my sink is only ten feet long, so I don't have room for extra trays and washing gear when 20X24 prints are involved.
My color work is done in drums, so that is a different issue entirely.