For "The End of the World As We Know It"

Alan Johnson · Nov 19, 2021

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fox-talbot-and-salt-fixing.141074/
Fox Talbot is said to have really liked the violet color of prints stabilized in concentrated salt solution, even after his colleague Sir John Herschel put him on to sodium thiosulfate as a fixer he persisted with attempts using salt to get the violet color but unfortunately the prints go yellow. This was about 1842.

runswithsizzers · Nov 19, 2021

As we face the decline of "Western Civilization" (includes much of Asia), I have sometimes wondered, What is the "Achilles Heel" for say, bicycles, or photography - whatever. That is, what is the weakest link in the supply chain? Does it take a higher level of technology to make a ball bearing, or a bicycle chain, or a pneumatic rubber tire?

Consider the times of Talbot and Brady. Certainly, theirs was a time before computers and the electrical grid, but a time when the industrial revolution was already well under way. How much did Talbot or Brady depend on some chemical component that might only come from a (relatively) sophisticated factory, and that could not be practically produced in smaller, lower-tech factories? Or, did early photography depend on some ingredient that is only found in certain parts of the world, and so, requires a stable, world-wide distribution system? That is, would Brady have been able to get everything he needed in America, or did his kind of photography depend on getting supplies from Europe? Which, in turn, depends on reliable transcontinental shipping?

I am guessing that if manufactured film becomes unavailable due to significant supply shortages and general chaos, most of us will have bigger things than photography to worry about. Guess I might want to stock up on some spares for my bicycle, though.

DREW WILEY · Nov 19, 2021

Are we all watching those bizarre survivalist reality TV shows with their big bunkers and amassed artillery etc. I'm certainly not, except for momentarily clicking channels past those. But so far, just doing that, I haven't seen any end-of-world darkrooms built down there. Seems they have higher self-defense priorities. Whatcha gonna do when all the starving hordes finally breach all your defenses in attempt to get to your own last can of condensed soup? Spray em with home-brew Dektol?

Donald Qualls · Nov 20, 2021

Honestly, @DREW WILEY I'm more concerned about a combination of factors making it impossible to obtain certain chemicals than about needing a full-auto assault rifle to fight off the zombie hoards. Just look at Europeans who can't even home-mix D-76 any more, because borates have been effectively banned (at least I can still buy borax in the laundry section of my supermarket). Remember strike-anywhere matches? I've heard there's a replacement, but the version we had for almost 140 years was killed by the war on drugs, after people started using them as a source for a chemical needed to cook methamphetamine.

With insurance companies the sworn enemies of home swimming pools (my ex used to work for a company that would cancel a homeowner policy if there was an above-ground pool not surrounded by a prison-grade fence), I don't think it's that far fetched to see easy access to thiosulfates become an issue . As I've been told other times, most of the other chemicals we use (metol, for instance) came from other industries, but all industries are changing, as worker safety and environmental protection take precedence over being able to do things we've done for a couple centuries. Good grief, gasoline may become hard to find before I die, and not the way it was forecast when I was in grade school, by the Earth running out of petroleum, but because there won't be any profit in distributing it after 95% of vehicles run on clean energy of one kind or another (hydrogen, biofuels, or batteries).

But sulfur and baking soda (to convert to washing soda aka soda ash) aren't likely to be big issues any time soon. Gardeners need sulfur dust, and it's innocuous in the environment (and used in farming, for something, I used to see it near the fertilizer/pesticide distributor when i was growing up), and baking soda isn't going anywhere as long as we continue to eat biscuits and pancakes and similar.

removed account4 · Nov 20, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Remember strike-anywhere matches? I've heard there's a replacement, but the version we had for almost 140 years was killed by the war on drugs, after people started using them as a source for a chemical needed to cook methamphetamine.

and I was lead to believe by historians that "safety matches" were invented because to many people ended up with hot pockets, and not the toaster food.
I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but if a variety of photo chemistries are made illegal for whatever reasons there are plenty of ways to make photographic images
that don't require much of anything ... you probably just need to buy a copy of Christoper James' alternative process book and dig into non silver processes. you might not be able to use a camera, but you will still be able to make photographic (made with light) images. one just needs to free oneself from the camera and there is a whole world of photography to explore.

DREW WILEY · Nov 21, 2021

Ha! Borates. For decades Octa-borates were tightly restricted to the licensed extermination trade for several distinct reasons : it was dirt cheap, nontoxic, and super simple to apply; and the trade lobby wanted to keep a monopoly on that fact. It is also used in fire retardants, though not waterproof. Borax soap - well, you can still buy that for your kids. But even distilled water will kill you if you drink five gallons at once.

I'm all for banning private swimming pools, at least in parts of the drought-stricken West where tap water is synonymous with Clorox because they are collecting the very bottom of that mud puddle which was formerly called a reservoir. But from the viewpoint of insurance companies, they're worried about someone diving into a swimming pool and landing on hard dry pool plaster, since it's inevitable a lot of pools are in fact going to go dry. Maybe they should just send everyone a sign instead :
Skateboard Facility Behind this Fence.

takilmaboxer · Nov 22, 2021

As the global warming that everybody is denying proceeds apace, your biggest problem will be hordes of refugees fleeing poorer countries, where the impacts will be worse, for richer countries like the USA. It's already happening and has created a toxic political environment. The availability of borates will not be the most urgent problem.

Donald Qualls · Nov 22, 2021

takilmaboxer said:
hordes of refugees fleeing hotter equatorial countries, where the impacts will be worse, for cooler, more survivable countries like Canada and the UK.

Fixed that for you. Equatorial climates going out of the survivable range is already starting, but IMO that's a solvable problem (if we as a species have the will to do so); the solution, however (much stricter environmental controls on industry) is likely to have repercussions on chemical photography even ignoring things like sea level rise, excessive temperatures, etc.

takilmaboxer · Nov 22, 2021

Well then, let's consider the bright side: analog B/W negatives will last for hundreds of years, so future historians will depend on chemical photography to document whatever happens.

Donald Qualls · Nov 22, 2021

takilmaboxer said:
analog B/W negatives will last for hundreds of years,

And unlike hard disks and SSDs and flash RAM, they'll still visibly contain images until the gelatin comes off the base.

Providing they're properly fixed and washed, of course...

faberryman · Nov 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
And unlike hard disks and SSDs and flash RAM, they'll still visibly contain images until the gelatin comes off the base.

Providing they're properly fixed and washed, of course...

And properly stored and not misplaced or thrown out because nobody wants them. What steps have you taken to insure your negatives will survive you and be cared for for future generations? Don’t delay; you never know when you’ll get hit by a bus.

takilmaboxer · Nov 22, 2021

I'm imagining the scenario: civilization collapses but humanity survives, and gradually recreates a new form of civilization. Archeologists begin to dig into the past, and one day, they dig up a sealed metal box full of B/W negatives. Alas, the photos are all of cute dogs and cats.

Donald Qualls · Nov 22, 2021

takilmaboxer said:
Alas, the photos are all of cute dogs and cats.

None the less, they'd give a clue toward recovery of a pre-Apocalypse technology and art form. Just as scientists can tell how Leonardo made his paints, and how that changed from his day to Vermeer's or Whistler's or van Gogh's.

DREW WILEY · Nov 22, 2021

Yeah, it changed, depending which specific toxic substance one preferred to smooth with his fingers or lick off his brushes. No problem after the side-effects; just paint back on a faux ear.

As far as distant generations and future archaeologists go, and a record of present "civilization" being available on computer discs - heck, about all they're being used for now is skeet shooting. Nearly obsolete already. And why would we want to afflict the future with our own idiocies? Discs, just like hoola hoops and billions of selfie sticks found under subsequent layers of trash and midden - how to interpret them? Were these once arranged in circles to predict the solstices and equinoxes, or what?

Donald Qualls · Nov 22, 2021

DREW WILEY said:
just paint back on a faux ear.

I think the current opinion is that Vincent's issues weren't a result of ingesting turpentine or other toxicity from his materials, but a genuine mental illness a century or more before medications were available to help. Craving terpenes (the usual reason to drink turpentine) is a symptom, not (generally) a cause.

DREW WILEY · Nov 22, 2021

Turpentine was given in spoons to children as cough syrup in the Victorian and Edwardian eras, and even somewhat afterwards. But all kinds of quality pigments were toxic, especially ones of truly lasting permanence. Think of all the apprentices to painters in the Renaissance, who had to grind those substances. And just think of how lead-based white cosmetics, and mercury-based cinnabar ones, were applied to women's faces for millennia.

But going back to borates. Heck, you just have to go any number of old lakebed places in the desert where it was mined to begin with, like "Twenty Mule Team Borax" still advertises. But lack of borate termite and dryrot preventatives to the public, during an era not so long ago, sure didn't deprive the public of a selection "value-added" options at higher price. Just think of all those products anyone could buy right on a retail shelf life like pentachlorophenol or creosote or copper napthanate. Might as well get the most for your money! These didn't just cure the insect and fungal issues, but had real added factors, like carcinogens, dioxins, skin burning, respiratory irritation, very slow outgassing properties, etc - all sorts of extra goodies.

Sirius Glass · Nov 22, 2021

faberryman said:
And properly stored and not misplaced or thrown out because nobody wants them. What steps have you taken to insure your negatives will survive you and be cared for for future generations? Don’t delay; you never know when you’ll get hit by a bus.

Until the format changes and if all the media are not migrated, those photographs are lost forever. Bottom line like it or not digital formats are still just not archival. This subject has been beaten to death in other threads. Continue your rant and this thread will get closed.

Andrew O'Neill · Nov 22, 2021

If we lose film, that would be a sad day, but not the end of the world. I can shoot digitally, and still make carbon transfer prints, etc... if we lose ALL photo-related chemicals, including dichromates (it will happen), and DAS (unlikely), then I'll go back to drawing. That's where it all started for me...

faberryman · Nov 22, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
Until the format changes and if all the media are not migrated, those photographs are lost forever. Bottom line like it or not digital formats are still just not archival. This subject has been beaten to death in other threads. Continue your rant and this thread will get closed.

Speaking from experience, negatives neatly filed in PrintFile pages can go missing, just as hard drives can fail. For both analog and digital images, I have printed those images which are important to me, and they are stored in neatly labeled museum boxes. It is an ongoing project: shoot a roll/memory card, print the keepers; shoot a roll/memory card, print the keepers. I think some people are under the misapprehension that after they are gone someone is going to sort though binders and binders of negatives and terabytes and terabytes of digital images and try to figure out what, if anything, is worth saving.

DREW WILEY · Nov 22, 2021

Just estate planning for my own collection will be complicated enough. Maybe my heirs will just solve the whole problem by renting a big dumpster and being done with it. And I formally drymount my best work, black and white at least. Someone will throw a few leaky old ketchup bottles into that same dumpster afterwards, a bum will come along, take a bite of tomato-flavored museum board, and remark how much better it tastes than the scraps in the dumpster behind the Round Table Pizza joint down the street. So at least my life's work will have served some noble purpose.

At least that would be a better outcome than losing your collection to a nuke world war, and the entire planet becoming a "carbon print".

removed account4 · Nov 22, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I think the current opinion is that Vincent's issues weren't a result of ingesting turpentine or other toxicity from his materials, but a genuine mental illness a century or more before medications were available to help. Craving terpenes (the usual reason to drink turpentine) is a symptom, not (generally) a cause.

he had syphilis.

reddesert · Nov 22, 2021

faberryman said:
Speaking from experience, negatives neatly filed in PrintFile pages can go missing, just as hard drives can fail. For both analog and digital images, I have printed those images which are important to me, and they are stored in neatly labeled museum boxes. It is an ongoing project: shoot a roll/memory card, print the keepers; shoot a roll/memory card, print the keepers. I think some people are under the misapprehension that after they are gone someone is going to sort though binders and binders of negatives and terabytes and terabytes of digital images and try to figure out what, if anything, is worth saving.

It worked for Garry Winogrand. So we all just have to be as talented as Garry Winogrand.

I am not really worried about the future in which fixer is regulated out of existence and can only be bought by official pool service companies. I mean, some of my best friends are pool boys, but pool boys aren't exactly the most heavily licensed and regulated occupation to date.

NedL · Nov 22, 2021

jnantz said:
one just needs to free oneself from the camera and there is a whole world of photography to explore.

DREW WILEY · Nov 23, 2021

One just needs to stop worrying, and just go out and do it! Or maybe prognosticating and publicly worrying about what will happen to photographic supplies once we are underground ourselves pushing up daisies kicks in on rainy days. Cabin fever syndrome. Dunno. I'm just waiting for it to warm up enough this afternoon to do a minor roof repair. Did my yard chores yesterday, when most of the day was warm and dry.

Dismayed · Nov 23, 2021

I'll start to worry only when buggy whips are no longer available.

https://www.drivingessentials.com/Fiberglass_Whips.php

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