For TF-4 Users.

jamusu · Aug 23, 2009

I plan on purchasing an order soon.

Jamusu.

dancqu · Aug 23, 2009

eli griggs said:
What PH do you recommend for Sodium Thiosulfate fixers
with comparable times?

Bill Troop has mentioned a ph of 10.5 as top. Although he did
not elaborate he did say though that the benefits of an alkaline
fixer are greatened as the ph is increased. At a ph of 10.5
he quite likely had sodium thiosulfate in mind. A rapid
fix at that ph would very likely be intolerable.

BTW, a sodium thiosulfate fixer suffers only in degree, not
in kind, with an ammonium thiosulfate fixer. And not in
all degrees at that. Dan

eli griggs · Aug 23, 2009

Thanks for the answer Dan. It's always nice to have more data on the choices we might need make. I like to use rapid fixes but just in case I run short, I keep Sodium Thiosulfate on hand.

Eli

marcmarc · Aug 24, 2009

I've been using TF-4 for four years now for film. I fix six rolls for each batch of working solution. I know this is much less then the recommended capacity, but at $9.99 a bottle I feel better that I'm not coming anywhere near exhausting the solution. A two bath fixing method is probably ideal but for now I'm sticking to what I know.

George Collier · Aug 24, 2009

I use TF4 in a 2 bath system for film and prints (RC and Fiber), and test the first bath after each use with Hypo Check (I still have some bottles from years ago). I have never had the bath test "exhausted", but I change the bath when approaching the capacities on the bottle. I see a black kind of grainy precipitate in the fixer from prints occasionally, but have been advised on this forum not to worry about it.

jamusu · Aug 24, 2009

Jason.

How long do you keep the print in the water four your double water stop bath method? Also, why do you like the fact that water stop baths are not immediate?

Jamusu.

_________________________________________________________________

JBrunner said:
I use TF-4 for both film and paper. I use a water stop for both film and paper. Water stops are not immediate, and that effect is what I like. With paper I use a "double" water stop. Because I prefer not to use an acid stop, a double water stop or a rinse tray (with paper) after the first stop prevents carryover. Using this method it lasts as long or longer as any other fixer I have tried. I'm very happy with it, and wouldn't consider using another fixer except on the weight of great advice from many people.

jamusu · Aug 26, 2009

The TF-4 is on the way. I placed an order yesterday.

Jamusu.

JBrunner · Aug 26, 2009

jamusu said:
Jason.

How long do you keep the print in the water four your double water stop bath method? Also, why do you like the fact that water stop baths are not immediate?

Jamusu.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Jamasu,

The general theory is that water stops development through dilution over a longer time line, rather than the instant stop that is achieved with an opposite PH. With water, highlights can continue to develop a small bit while shadow areas stop sooner. That is the general legend of the water stop.

In practice, I have found no reason to use an acid stop, nor any reason not to. They both work fine. I have had pinholes develop with an acid stop and pyro neg, but that is anecdotal, as is much of the debate about acid vs. water.

With paper I have a stop tray, two minutes, and a rinse tray that the print gets dunked in to rinse off from the stop tray. I change them out about every ten 8x10s'. MY fixer life is satisfactory using this method.

dancqu · Aug 26, 2009

JBrunner said:
Hi Jamasu,
The general theory is that water stops development
through dilution ...

With paper I have a stop tray, two minutes, and
a rinse tray that the print gets dunked in to
rinse off from the stop tray.

Water stops development through dilution AND a
concurrent drop in ph. The drop in ph will render
remaining developer inactive. Generally paper
developers are most affected because of
their high working ph.

I have found very dilute one-shot fixers to need
no stop. Develop - Fix. They wash out quickly with
a minimum of water. Silver loads never need
exceed archival limits.

Add very dilute developer to the routine and
you've got single tray processing. Very
space saving. Dan

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2009

Dan;

Depending on the buffer capacity of the developer, the pH may not drop significantly. OTOH, I have seen poorly buffered developers in which the pH is at about 4 in the vicinity of dmax. So pH is not a reliable criterion. Couple that with the slow outward diffusion of the large organic developer molecules and the actual cessation of development may be slower than you would want.

PE

jamusu · Aug 31, 2009

The TF-4 arrived.

I purchased 1 liter which makes 4 liters. The instructions say mix with 3 liters of water to make 4 liters working solution. I have noticed that the stock solution has a white cloudy substance in it. Is this normal? Also, how long do you guys mix it before knowing that it is ready to use? What are your methods?

Thank you,
Jamusu.

JBrunner · Aug 31, 2009

jamusu said:
The TF-4 arrived.

I purchased 1 liter which makes 4 liters. The instructions say mix with 3 liters of water to make 4 liters working solution. I have noticed that the stock solution has a white cloudy substance in it. Is this normal? Also, how long do you guys mix it before knowing that it is ready to use? What are your methods?

Thank you,
Jamusu.

Hi Jamasu,

Shake up the concentrate really well, and then mix your working solution as the directions say. It will be cloudy, (milky). It will turn clear in a short while.

jamusu · Aug 31, 2009

Will do.

____________________________________________________________________________

JBrunner said:
Hi Jamasu,

Shake up the concentrate really well, and then mix your working solution as the directions say. It will be cloudy, (milky). It will turn clear in a short while.

dancqu · Aug 31, 2009

jamusu said:
The TF-4 arrived. I purchased 1 liter which makes 4 liters.

A dilution for film but not for prints? Both Kodak and Ilford
include dilutions for prints. And for good reason. Dan

JBrunner · Aug 31, 2009

dancqu said:
A dilution for film but not for prints? Both Kodak and Ilford
include dilutions for prints. And for good reason. Dan

The instructions for TF-4 give accurate capacities for both film and paper. The dilutions are the same.

Richard Jepsen · Sep 2, 2009

I started using TF-4 seven or eight years ago without a stop bath to lower odor in my non-vented DR. It was successful. After reading PEs posts I use a stop bath with larger 9x12 inch prints just for an abundance of caution. Paper tones faster when using TF-4. Ilford tech pubs advises no more than (12) 8x10 fiber prints per L of fix (substitute TF-4) avoids silver build-up and maintains archival standards in a single tray fix workflow. Tone in KRST and use a hypo clear for 10 min. Tray wash with 7 exchanges of water over 20 to 30 min. The conservative workflow should be produce prints which will last a real long time.

As others mentioned, follow the directions on the bottle. On occasion you may need a stir tool to break-up/dissolve lumps; no problem. TF-4 is a top draw product.

dancqu · Sep 2, 2009

Richard Jepsen said:
Ilford tech pubs advises no more than (12) 8x10 fiber
prints per L of fix (substitute TF-4) avoids silver build-up
and maintains archival standards in a single tray fix workflow.

Ilford advises no more than 10 8x10s per liter. That is of
an average of prints. So limited, silver levels will not exceed
0.5 grams per liter. That 10 print limit applies to film as well
as paper dilutions. No matter the strength of the fixer the
0.5 gram limit is a volumetric limit; so much dissolved
silver per liter.

To observe the volumetric limit but use fixer at film strength
is simply to throw good fixer down the drain.

Ilford recommends a two bath fix for great chemical mileage
and very low last fix dissolved silver levels. Dan

jgjbowen · Sep 15, 2009

Received my Formulary newsletter today and TF-5 has arrived.

bdial · Sep 15, 2009

...and TF-5 has arrived

Cool, and it's on special too.
Anyone need a partially used bottle of Hypam?

PVia · Sep 15, 2009

What's the difference btw TF4 and TF5?

The Formulary description seems the same...

trexx · Sep 15, 2009

PVia said:
What's the difference btw TF4 and TF5?

The Formulary description seems the same...

One

But seriously, it is the evolution of a formula. The next revision. I think a close version would be found in the formula section under Super Fix., but I could be wrong. But still the evolution of TF-4.

TR

jamusu · Sep 17, 2009

I finally used the TF4 to develop a few rolls of film. I love how much time it saved. I hope I fixed the film correctly. I agitated the first thirty seconds, waited a minute, then agitated another thirty seconds. I repeated this until the time expired. Can't wait to use it for fiber prints!

It is funny though. I just learned about TF-4 and TF-5 was released a few days ago. It is reported to be even better than TF-4.

Jamusu.

PVia · Sep 17, 2009

Well, that's what I was asking...why is TF5 better? The description on the Formulary repeats all the same advantages that it touted for TF4...

I'm going to call them.

PVia · Sep 17, 2009

OK, folks...just called the Formulary. The TF-4 vs TF-5 info is in their new newsletter, downloadable from the bottom left column of their home page.

Some features include: no sediment, no odor (since it's not as alkaline, closer to neutral or slightly acidic ph6.5). I was told on the phone that it is not ammonium thio-based.

dancqu · Sep 18, 2009

No Ammonium?

PVia said:
I was told on the phone that it is not ammonium thio-based.

Hard to believe. Not a rapid fixer? An updated TF-2? Dan

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