Foma reversal kit with Ilford Delta 3200 and HP5

[Rudeofus]

I have done quite a bit of E6 and C41 development myself so far, now B&W slides have cought my attention. Unfortunatley my experience with B&W is tiny and from a long time ago. From what I've read so far B&W processes are very different from standardized color processes, the ISO number on a B&W film is mere guidance and every dev kit has its own quirks

The Foma reversal kit appears to be optimized for their own film which unfortunately doesn't come in 120 size, but the friendly photography dealer told me I could use most B&W films anyway. So here I am, after reading dozens of pages, more confused than I was before. I have no problems if the resulting slides have low contrast or the shades don't come out pure black, but I'd like to start from somewhere.

1. What can I expect from exposing HP5 @ ISO400 and then running it through this Foma reversal kit with the times and temperatures as stated in their instructions? Which parameter do you recommend tweaking?
2. Same thing for Delta 3200. I read that the 3200 number is pure marketing and one should treat this as an ISO 1000 film. Would it work that way with this Foma reversal kit? Has anyone tried reversing Delta 3200?
3. As far as I have read B&W reversal info online, it consists of five basic steps: development, bleaching, reexposure, development, fixing. Supposedly the second dev step determines push/pull. Did anyone try pushing films with this reversal kit?
4. What exactly am I to do in this reexposure step? :confused: From what I understood I drop the spool with the film into some transparent container, fill it with water and shine light at it. But from where do I shine the light? Is it critical how much and how evenly the light hits the film at this stage or is this a process done to exhaustion (where only too little light would be detrimental)?
5. This kit is optimized for multiples of 330ml, unfortunately the Jobo tanks for 120 film are designed for 500ml. If I mix 660ml, can I put two 120 films on the same spool and expect acceptable results?
6. One last question: What are the odds of getting this somewhat right the first time? Again, I do have a proper E6 setup and know how to follow such a process at the required temperature. But if this is too finicky, would I better run a few test rolls of random el cheapo 135 B&W film through my EOS 3 before I waste time on 120 film? What would you recommend?

 

[Jordan]

I'm not sure exactly how the kit is mixed up, but your best bet would be to experiment with first developer time, keeping everything else consistent. I would also run a roll of the Foma film intended for the process (100R, I think?) so you can see what the end result should look like. No harm in trying HP5 Plus and Delta, but be prepared to waste a lot of film in experimentation. You'll probably get visible images the first time out, but gorgeous well-developed positives will come only with trial and error.

 

[DolganoFF]

You mean mix 500 ml of bleach from the chems intended for 250 ml?

Hihger concentration of bleach for Foma 100R film makes sense: there is antihalation layer to bleach out, that's more silver than in normal b&w negative film.

 

[Rudeofus]

No. You have to halve only the permanganate, not the acid (sulfuric acid).
Foma kit diluitions are based on Paterson tanks not on Jobo ones.

That sounds terrific! I can mix 440 or 500 ml of developer solution from the concentrates and only use 1 pack or less of KMnO4, and I get 5 or 6 runs instead of 4! It's been these little bags of something which worried me most, I'm glad to hear that it's something as simple as KMnO4 and that I should use less than prescribed.

I just prefer mix the chemistry from scratch: this way it's cheaper and I have far more control over the process. It's not that difficult after all.

Process control is nice to have once I gathered some experience, but certainly not at the moment where slight variations can mean that the film base peels off. Once the Foma developer does its job properly and I get meaningful results, the time may have come for further experiments.

One thing would be very interesting: Can I use some chemicals from Tetenal E6 3 bath kit to replace chemicals from the B&W reversal process? As far as I know the first developer should do essentially the same as regular B&W developer, and some of the functions of color developer and bleach/fix sound very similar to what the B&W reversal bathes do ...

That said, I'd expect the Hp5+ to have weak Dmax (generally all 400 films have weak Dmax). I'd also not waste Delta 3200.

I've seen results from Delta 3200 on the DR5 web page, and while I've certainly seen higher contrast before, the results seem nice to me. Obviously this Foma thing is not DR5 but even lower contrast may work quite nicely e.g. for high key baby shots. I'll try hp5+ first, though.

 

[DolganoFF]

What are the alternatives for Potassium permanganate and potassium dichromate for B&w reversal?
Can one acheive the same results with the bleach used for toning (ferricyanide)?

 

[Rudeofus]

yes, of course you can use Delta3200, the only thing is be prepared to some soft-looking images.

I assume you mean low contrast images, not blurry looking ones.

And you probably can use a fogging second developer, skipping the second exposure to light.

Any ideas what I could use as fogging agent? Or fogging second dev? Could I use a component from my E6 kit for that?

Last note: I'd suggest not to reuse the permanganate bleach, because it's purpose is to be reduced to MnO2, a brown sediment. If you reuse it you'll get stains and will risk to ruin the film.

I had no intention of reusing the KMnO4. The reason I wrote about gaining more development runs out of one Foma pack is because now I can really mix 440 or 500ml of developer instead of 660ml. All the other ingredients are liquid so they can be mixed accurately in any quantity, whereas the KMnO4 comes in separate bags to be used for 330ml each. Since I can and even should use less KMnO4 than recommended by Foma, I'll try using one bag or even only parts of it for 440/500ml.

Thanks for all your help so far, I just got a bit more confident that I can make this work!

 

[Jordan]

What are the alternatives for Potassium permanganate and potassium dichromate for B&w reversal?
Can one acheive the same results with the bleach used for toning (ferricyanide)?

Unfortunately, no. Sepia toner bleach is a re-halogenating bleach and makes your negative and positive images indistinguishable from one another -- not good for reversal!

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

If you want to reverse process Ilford film, then the Ilford directions might be a help:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20061291034093.pdf

Adding a bit of thiosulphate to the first developer can be a good idea if you are going to use the Foma kit. For the second developer you can use pretty much any developer you wish, most people use Dektol or some variant of it.

As far as the fogging exposure - you expose the film to completion, so just lots of light will do it.

 

[sanking]

If you want to reverse process Ilford film, then the Ilford directions might be a help:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20061291034093.pdf

Adding a bit of thiosulphate to the first developer can be a good idea if you are going to use the Foma kit. For the second developer you can use pretty much any developer you wish, most people use Dektol or some variant of it.

As far as the fogging exposure - you expose the film to completion, so just lots of light will do it.

Has anyone every compared results using the Ilford method or the Tmax-100 reversal kit with dr5 processing? http://www.dr5.com/

Also, just curious to know if the Formulary has a film reversal kit in their product line?



Sandy King

 

[railwayman3]

I've tried various B&W reversal kits on-and-off for quite some years, including the Ilford formulae which give good results. Invariably the best results seem to be from slow to medium films. Ilford state in their guide notes:-

"RECOMMENDED FILMS"
"The suitability of a negative film for reversal
processing depends largely on its inherent
contrast. Little can be done to change the contrast
appreciably by changes in processing, so choose
a film for reversal processing acccording to the
ultimate contrast required in the final positive image.
"FP4 Plus is recommended for a moderately soft
graduated image. However, PAN F Plus gives
bright, higher contrast positives particularly useful
for copy work. 100 DELTA Professional is also
recommended.
"We do not recommend reversal processing HP5
Plus or DELTA 400 PROFESSIONAL film stock.
Results are likely to exhibit unacceptably low contrast."

I'm sure that film faster than 400ASA would be even less satisfactory, I personally wouldn't waste time or film on experiments.

 

[Rudeofus]

I've seen and read the Ilford instructions. Does anyone know whether the Foma formulation differs significantly from Ilfords description or can I assume the Foma kit is basically standard stuff for inverting B&W film? Can I expect similar results?

 

[railwayman3]

The Foma data sheets and formulae are on:-

Dead Link Removed

I've not used the Foma kit yet, so I'll have to defer to others more knowledgable for the compatability of the formula with other films not designed specifically for reversal processing ,

 

[tim_bessell]

For the second developer you can use pretty much any developer you wish, most people use Dektol or some variant of it.

As far as the fogging exposure - you expose the film to completion, so just lots of light will do it.

I would suggest that there are much better 2nd developers than 'any developer or Dektol'. And it doesn't have to go to completion either, as some have suggested.

I would also be careful to not over expose in the second exposure step.

Both these points have been talked about here on APUG.

 

[tim_bessell]

ok.

Some think the earth is flat also.-)

 

[dr5chrome]

"earth to railwayman"

.. the below statement couldn't be further from the truth.
http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/hp5.html

dw

I've tried various B&W reversal kits on-and-off for quite some years, including the Ilford formulae which give good results. Invariably the best results seem to be from slow to medium films. Ilford state in their guide notes:-

"RECOMMENDED FILMS"
"The suitability of a negative film for reversal
processing depends largely on its inherent
contrast. Little can be done to change the contrast
appreciably by changes in processing, so choose
a film for reversal processing acccording to the
ultimate contrast required in the final positive image.
"FP4 Plus is recommended for a moderately soft
graduated image. However, PAN F Plus gives
bright, higher contrast positives particularly useful
for copy work. 100 DELTA Professional is also
recommended.
"We do not recommend reversal processing HP5
Plus or DELTA 400 PROFESSIONAL film stock.
Results are likely to exhibit unacceptably low contrast."

I'm sure that film faster than 400ASA would be even less satisfactory, I personally wouldn't waste time or film on experiments.

 

[dr5chrome]

been there done that..

Sandy; I have done this test but not published it. In the past, out of boastful arrogance, I have offered free processing challenges - to post. No one has taken the offer seriously.

dw

Has anyone every compared results using the Ilford method or the Tmax-100 reversal kit with dr5 processing? http://www.dr5.com/

Also, just curious to know if the Formulary has a film reversal kit in their product line?



Sandy King

 

[railwayman3]

OK, I taKe your point.

But I was referring to the Ilford formulae (published by them) and their suggestions on their films to choose (they make the films, so we can presumably accept what they say?). This accords with my own experience, and I maintain that IMHO I would not waste time and money experimenting with the Ilford formulae with 3200 film.

Clearly, you have different formulae which will work, but I took it that the OP was asking about home-processing. Are you going to publish your formulae (as have Ilford and Forma) .

..
"earth to railwayman"

the below statement couldn't be further from the truth.
http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/hp5.html

dw

 

[Rudeofus]

But I was referring to the Ilford formulae (published by them) and their suggestions on their films to choose (they make the films, so we can presumably accept what they say?). This accords with my own experience, and I maintain that IMHO I would not waste time and money experimenting with the Ilford formulae with 3200 film.

It's common in science that multiple opinions exist on a subject and I appreciate that people share their experience. Personally I don't think DR5 is vodoo magic, they focussed on one topic (B&W reversal process) for many years, optimized and fine tuned the process and obviously get better results than a home brew meister like me can expect from the first 100 runs or so (if I even get that far). I may not get contrasty slides out of Delta 3200, but at least something recognizable which I can use if I'm after that look for whatever reason.

Clearly, you have different formulae which will work, but I took it that the OP was asking about home-processing. Are you going to publish your formulae (as have Ilford and Forma) .

Yes, I did ask about home brew processing, yet I consider DR5 the reference by which I measure my degree of success. Even if they posted their formulas, they may just have such a consistent process that we may not be able to reproduce it with the required accuracy. I applaud them for perfecting the process and certainly can't blame them for not publishing their core know how. If they were located in Europe I'm sure I'd sent them some B&W film to process before possibly trying it out on my own.

 

[railwayman3]

However take in serious consideration Dr.Wood offer, his service is undoubtely very good and let you focus on taking actual photos rather than fiddling around with chemistry and wasting films.
This is my 0.02$.
)

Thanks for that recommendation, I had seen dr5 previously and noted the details for possible use of the service.

I sometimes process my own E-6, B&W reversal and C-41 "when I feel like it" and my next experiment will be the Foma kit. I'm interested that the Form 100R might be on a clear base (?) rather than the usual grey base of B&W neg.....as a film produced for reversal, I'd expect good results, hopefully without a lot of fiddling around.

(Just reminded me of the time, in the early 1980's, we processed a stock of long-outdated Dufaycolor reversal, using home-mixed chemicals. Now that
was serious DIY experimenting. )

 

[railwayman3]

It's common in science that multiple opinions exists on a subject and I appreciate that people share their experience. Personally I don't think DR5 is vodoo magic, they focussed on one topic (B&W reversal process) for many years, optimized and fine tuned the process and obviously get better results than a home brew meister like me can expect from the first 100 runs or so (if I even get that far). I may not get contrasty slides out of Delta 3200, but at least something recognizable which I can use if I'm after that look for whatever reason.

Yes, I did ask about home brew processing, yet I consider DR5 the reference by which I measure my degree of success. Even if they posted their formulas, they may just have such a consistent process that we may not be able to reproduce it with the required accuracy. I applaud them for perfecting the process and certainly can't blame them for not publishing their core know how. If they were located in Europe I'm sure I'd sent them some B&W film to process before possibly trying it out on my own.

I'd agree, there are different ways to do things, and sometimes "rules" and recommendations can be broken to very good effect. I just usually start from manufacturers' recommendations, then I have, at least, a reference point to expand on.
(And, for the same reasons, I'm very suspicious of any supplier who says that "we are the best, everyone else is rubbish", whether it be for motor cars, investment schemes, or photographic supplies and services. (Sorry, bit OT), )
I'm sure that I too would have tried dr5 if they were in Europe.....it would just be a rather expensive exercise to expose enough films to try the various speeds and to mail to-and-from the US (that's not a criticism of their prices, I don't expect quality to come cheap.)

 

[narigas2006]

If you're having problems with the kit, you can also buy the raw chemicals and mix them.

the 1st and 2nd developer can be regulaar bw dev the bleach you need to mix 12g of K dichromate and 12ml of sulphuric acid in 1 litre water (acid in the water, not the other way round!)

also you need a clearing bath (10% sodium sulphite sol)

you can get the stuff from www.artcraftchemicals.com

 

[narigas2006]

and by the way the ilford processed reversal es even easy than the foma but i would expose it one stop less

 

[Rudeofus]

About the reexposure step: how exactly is this done? Should I leave the film on the spool and just shine random light at it from the top? Or from the side? Do I have to put the spindle in water while reexposing?

What is the chemical alternative to rexposing with light? Care to share any suitable receipes?

 

[railwayman3]

I've usually done it by leaving the film on its (transparent or stainless steel spool) and shining a light from either end (moving the light around).
Keeping the spindle in water stops any risk of the emulsion drying out (but obviously don't splash the hot bulb, electricity and water don't mix! )

 

[narigas2006]

you can keep the spool in a glass flask (e.g. beaker) filled with water during the re-exp