FOMA R Reversal BW Film 8mm, how to expose 4000 frames when no control development ?

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

I know our large format users calculate with highlights and shadows to expose and develop. I have an 8 mm Bolex C8 and today I received the film.
I want to know how to expose 4000 different frames with weston lighmeter to get the most quality when I have no control on development. I posted to other forum to find a pre dip test developing company.

What kind of process I should follow to use that film and many frames when exposing with ordinary light meter ?

Umut

removed account4 · Nov 26, 2013

hi umut

your film will be like slide film, not a huge amount of lee-way with exposure.
what you might do, is instead of exposing a HUGE ROLL of images, you meter your scene
( does your light meter have a cine function on the dial ? ) calculate your exposures
and send off small series to the lab to be processed. similar lighting situations ... take notes
do some exposures "spot metering" some " broad light ambient metering" see which works best for you.
maybe bracket your exposures a little to see how much room you have for mistakes
so when you put the BIG ROLL in , you will have a better idea what you, and your lab, and your camera
and your film will work like together.
what i have noticed is that when i send to a lab, i have to work differently than when i process the film myself
seeing my developer, processing technique &c is totally different than the lab ...

have fun
john

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

Hi John,

Thank you for your wonderful answer. I still needs 3 things. Take up spool , cable release and light meter. There are lots of weston lighmeters at ebay and I referenced them and this is my first time I have ever heard about kightmeter with cine function. I think I must indicate when I appear on classifieds. What cine function do on metering ? And I want to ask , how labs process the film , with professional machines or hand development ? ic-racer helped a lot and found me a original take up spool but shipping was 25 dollars and I had to passed.

I think I might deal that problem with lab but I have to find first a good lab. Is anyone have a lab knowledge ?

By the way , sending receiving the small film piece and sending the original roll and receiving it , double development fee , faraway exceeds the camera cost and I could not do it. Sorry .

Take care John , hug the children and thank you all.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

I contacted with Spectra and Yale Film & Video and I am waiting their advise , will post everything here.
Spectra have an excellent website and ultra beatiful equipment.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

That is Yale Video answer , Do you agree with it ?

Well, with the Fomapan we have found out that it is very rich in silver and in order for us to be able to remove the silver, we have to push the film by 1 stop. If we do not push the film, most often than not on the clear sections of the film there is a sepia, brownish stain that is on there. Where there is image, there is no stain. We use the Kodak D-94A processing for the B/W reversal film and this is what we recommend to at least expose the film by at least 1/2 stop so we do not wash out the image when we push process the film.

Now, if you want and just want to test out exactly what the film looks like without having us push process the film, you may request to do so, but we will not be responsible for the outcome of the image. We do charge an additional $10.00 to push the film per stop. Our charge to process the film is $15.00

removed account4 · Nov 26, 2013

umut

from what i remember LOMO sells a film processing system / tank
and if you can source the chemistry you can probably do it all at home
without needing to send to a lab at all ...

seeing it is black+white, maybe ... it will work for you?
also, have you thought instead of processing the film as a POSITIVE, what happens
if you put it in your tank and process it in regular NEGATIVE developer ( regular film developer )
seeing you don't plan on printing the images on photo paper but creating electronic files
it might be another avenue for you to think about ..

good luck !
john

railwayman3 · Nov 26, 2013

I think that Yale Video are saying that you should under-exposure the film by at least a half-stop to allow then to push process, and thereby avoid staining from residual silver.

So you would expose the film at twice the box speed?

That all seems to make sense for reversal processing of the film, given that Kodak D-94A is probably not identical with the original Foma process. (I have used the 35mm version with the Foma kit, and have been happy with the results).

(Are you using the film as movie, or to take 4,000 still pictures? If the latter, what is your idea to use them for....prints or scanning? Remember that individual 8mm frames are very tiny, and you will not get much detail, even with the quality lenses which Bolex fitted to their cameras.)

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

John ,

I cant compete with their technology at home. I never processed reversal film in my life and chemicals and tanks not decrease the price.
Yes I will use scanner path to post my images and have no enlarger at home.

Yes Railwayman , I will use the latter path.

Its about scanning for gallery and I scan my 35 negs in to 17mb file and compress 34 times for gallery.
8mm film is 25 times smaller and to scan as 35mm film would deliver better image ? This is my path but I can be wrong.

So you would expose the film at twice the box speed?

Could you please explain that ?

Thank you and take care all ,

Umut

railwayman3 · Nov 26, 2013

The manufacturers rating for Foma R is ISO 100. So to underexpose by one stop, you would rate the film, and set metering and exposure, as if using an ISO 200 film.

I can't see that you can ever get a better image from a tiny 8mm frame than from a 35mm neg.? You are starting with much more detail in the 35mm frame than can ever be captured in an 8mm frame, and also any defects, dust or scratches will always be much more visible on a small format. It's like comparing 35mm with 5 x 4.....if technical quality were so easy to get, why would anyone use large format. This is perhaps why 35mm and 120 are the most popular film sizes....a compromise between on the technical quality given by large film against the lower running costs and portability of smaller cameras and film.

Alex Muir · Nov 26, 2013

Umut, the cine function on a light meter is probably only useful if you are actually shooting movies. It gives you aperture values for different running speeds such as 18fps, 32fps, etc. For single frame shooting, you need to identify the shutter speed the camera operates at. Then you can use any meter. Be careful if you decide to buy a Weston meter. Many of them no longer work properly. I have had 3, and none worked. I have looked at my Bolex Guide. It states that the C8 uses a shutter speed of 1/35 sec when running at 18fps. The book recommends closing aperture by 1/3 of a stop when taking single frames to compensate for the slower shutter speed. This probably means the effective speed for single frames is 1/30sec. The problem I see for using the Bolex as a still camera is that you are limited to one shutter speed. Good luck with your plan. I hope you get some good results. Alex

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Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

Ah , my brain is slow I dont know , We will all see the result in next 3 months if I can manage to go to bed early and wake up at the morning.
Sometimes good optics and forcing them on the film is what I like. If you give me a Technikardan and film , I would not be able to find something to shoot.
As I say , good optics reveal what they can offer when forcing them. Same thing is for film. For example I like Leica dim light performance. And sometimes when it is little bit out of focus on skin or textile or stone. It gives grain but shadows dances with the grain and gives breathtaking details. And same as 1950s optics on skin tones. I am not expert but what I found , these years are the days where they started to use partial dispersion glass. I always compare the performance with old masters.
I could not find a optic newer than 40 years have these qualities.
For scratches , photoshop is there. I dont think result would be bad , reports say %16 of US population had a bolex at 50s. They used for every purpose. And stop camera comics with these cameras are amazing.

Umut

railwayman3 · Nov 26, 2013

I'll be interested to see your results in due course. I'm still doubtful of the results of stills from such tiny areas of film, but maybe you'll prove me wrong.

Two reasons for my doubts....when 8mm movie film is shown at 18 fps, the movement, and persistence of vision in the eye, hides a lot of faults and unsharpness. And, having played around with 8 x 11 Minox shooting a few years ago, I know how much patience is needed, and frustration involved, in getting good results....I admire those photographers who use these cameras for serious work! For me it's much easier to slip a small 35mm into my pocket.

(But I suppose, really, that, if ease of use and convenience were all that mattered, I'd be using my point-and-shoot digital or my smartphone. Which is, of course, why we all put so much effort into our analog work. )

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

Alex,

Thank you. Bolex have a chart on it and it gives frame count and camera speed. It varies from
8-1/17
16-1/35
24-1/50
32-1/70
48-1/100
64-1/140

But the 1/35 dial is red , may be for single frame use but I have no knowledge on that.
I bought a cable release from ebay this evening and I will be able to use it , try it in next two weeks.
Well , there is no barrier to shoot couple of frames with different speeds , there are 4000 frames to be shoot or to be mad Remember mad magazine guy

Thank you Alex for the information. 1/3 for slow shutter speed compensation and 1/2 stop more for +1 push development compensation.
I will buy the meter from APUG . But next month. Film is in the deep freezer.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

Thank you Railway Hobo , I read them at Kerouac books and best time spent with Ginsberg poems.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 26, 2013

I have relatively good 35mm cameras but paying shipment for films are killing. I saw some horrible minox shots and saw some APX 400 AGFA shots technically better than all my carrier. I wish developer guy does not mess it.

ps. I received a message from Yale Video saying their standard definition per frame is 200 KB. I think I would be able to post very small images with that path. Higher definition would be more expensive they say.
I did not get the quote yet but I have to wait their engineers view tomorrow. I will post to here.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Nov 30, 2013

I found that DR5 is processing 8mm slide bw cine film either in sepia or neutral. 33 feet costs 45 dollars , 3 times more expensive than others.
I will send it to DR5.

Umut

FOMA R Reversal BW Film 8mm, how to expose 4000 frames when no control development ?

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