Foma Paper & Bleach/Re-Dev.in Lith

I've had the best results with this process with Forte Polygrade but used the last packet the other day - I've noticed on the forum that many of you regard Foma as the next best thing or as good as Forte and wonder if anyone has tried this process with one of the Foma papers and had good results. There seems to be 4 or 5 types of Foma but not sure which is the closest to Forte Polygrade - Foma is available here in Oz but I can't just buy it over the counter, a bit of rigmarole is involved in ordering so any help in pin-pointing the right paper would save me a trial and error situation .... and lotsa $$$ too.
Thanks, Patricia

Fomabrom Variant III


Jaap Jan

As Jaap says, Fomabrom will be the closest to Polygrade (though nothing's quite the same which is why I've stocked up with a load of Polygrade).

I haven't used Fomabrom for lith but Fomatone MG, Chamois and Nature work very well both for full lith development and for bleach and re-development. All respond extremely well to selenium toning to produce tri-tone splits when the lith is diluted to at least 1+19.

Barry

Jaap is right. That's the one. If you like lith printing, not the re-dev like you're referring to, but lith from scratch, the Fomabrom Variant 112 (matte surface) and the Fomatone Classic 132 (matte surface) are really very nice papers too. Their glossy counterparts are fantastic too from what I've seen, but I've never used them.
- Thomas

I have had best results with lith on glossy Fomatone MG. I find that Fomabrom Variant III is prone to produce very peppery blacks and can easily run away from you in lith. I have bleached and redeveloped Fomatone which is OK, but can't remember ever doing this with Fomabrom. Lith prints on Fomatone are also much more colourful than Fomabrom.

Hi there Patricia,

The Foma is your best bet, the warmtone stock is by far the best and the code is 131 gloss, 132 for the matte. I currently import the Foma here to Oz, but with limited stock. I do have plenty of warmtone in though and will be happy to post you some sample sheets for testing. regards, chris

Many thanks everyone, that's cut through the fog for me. The bleach/re-dev. process is a bit iffy and even Fotospeed Lith paper won't behave itself when used this way so its great to know the Fomatone may fit the bill. Just realised that the perfect paper for this was Forte Poly Warmtone, not the Polygrade so I'll be in touch Chris and place an order.
Cheers all. Patricia

I'm just curious, but why don't you just go straight to the lith process instead of bleach/redevelop? The Foma papers are great in straight lith.

Well Mark, the reason I like the bleach/re-dev. in Lith process is that I've been taken to the brink of madness/boredom/frustration using the straight to lith method. I've tried about 4 or 5 different papers, even Fotospeed's Lith paper - all with horrible results - and yes, I have both of Tim's Lith books and followed his methods to the letter, (I realise the sort-comings are all mine!) hence the frustration. Never one to know when its time to give up, I gave the bleaching a shot and achieved good results with Tetenal Vario and the Forte Polywarmtone which was much the best, giving a lovely etched grain effect with salmon/grey tones - it was a bit of a Eureka moment really - of course this being Real Life in the Darkroom, thats when I ran out of Forte paper! Hence my need to find a replacement - haven't tried Ilford Warmtone with this process as its really, really expensive here in Oz - I'll try it as a last resort I expect - I've been in contact with Chris from Blanco Negro and hope to get some Foma paper from him to try. If anyone's interested I'll let you know how it compares to the Forte, or maybe I'm the only using this process??
Cheers, Patricia

I understand your frustration. Bleach/redevelop can look good, but I found it rather unpredictable. In any case I would give the fomatone paper a try in straight lith. It really is wonderful in lith (I also had troubles with fotospeed when I started, but took to fomatone very quickly). I hope you have a darkroom torch. This is an essential piece of equipment. Now - after a lot of practice - I also occasionally use fotospeed and other papers, but it was fomatone that I really cut my teeth on. Good luck with it.

I agree, fomatone papers are great and pretty controllable with Lith. Definately get a darkroom torch, but use it sparingly. I use the RH Design one and it is perfect for the job.

Thanks again everyone, really looking forward to trying the Foma with the bleach/re-dev method, sounds very promising. It always amazes me how much our indivualism as creative people manifests itself inside the darkroom - I've come to the conclusion that pursuing straight lith work, even with the RH safe light, just doesn't suit my personality, (another reason why I'll never play golf!!) - but the other process fits like a glove. I've managed to achieve quite consistent results with it and best of all can do it in the "Light", and so can have total control over the "pull" time etc. Also found that the Fotospeed Lith paper prints normally - lovely tonal range etc. thank goodness as I've got a box of 50 12 x 16 languishing in the freezer.
Patricia

Hello,
I have been doing some Lith prints,just learning relly but a few prints i am happy with.Some of them got a little bit dark after drying up so i was thinking to bleach and redevelop them.My question is can i get the bleach for a photography shop as a normal chemichal?which bleach works better for this.What are the steps i should follow?water, bleach ,develop and fix againg?thank you very much in advance i would appreciate if anyone could help me with this

patricia de roeck said:

Thanks again everyone, really looking forward to trying the Foma with the bleach/re-dev method, sounds very promising. It always amazes me how much our indivualism as creative people manifests itself inside the darkroom - I've come to the conclusion that pursuing straight lith work, even with the RH safe light, just doesn't suit my personality, (another reason why I'll never play golf!!) - but the other process fits like a glove. I've managed to achieve quite consistent results with it and best of all can do it in the "Light", and so can have total control over the "pull" time etc. Also found that the Fotospeed Lith paper prints normally - lovely tonal range etc. thank goodness as I've got a box of 50 12 x 16 languishing in the freezer.
Patricia

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Hi Patricia
I haven't been around APUG for a while.
Virtually all papers works with bleach/redev - what I call 2nd-pass Lith.
Fomabrom is probably closest towhat you seek but do try MGWT - one of my absolute favorites. It comes back in soft lith colours and then breaks out in gentle greys in the midtones. You can stop the conversion to grey at whatever point you choose giving a lovely lith/B&W hybrid look.

BTW, the latest and final batch of Fotospeed Lith is one of the best ever as you may know from my newsletters if on my mailing list. Worth freezing. It isn't coming back.
Tim

Ternero - sorry I can't help much but all my books and notes etc. are packed away in storage as I'm about to build a new house. Not sure if you mean can you take the prints you've alreay lith'd and feel are too dark and bleach and re'dev. in lith again - I think you can, but if not some-one will be sure to correct me! The best thing I like about the bleach/re-dev in lith process is that it's done with the light on which means you can pull the print from the lith dev. when you feel you have the right effect. Yes, this is just the usual photographic bleach , but is best used at a weaker solution than normal, as you don't want the bleach to work too fast, you need to be able to judge when to pull from the bleach when you have the detail you require. Without my notes I can only give you a guideline to the bleach/re-dev process. Firstly you have to create a print normally with the usual develop/fix/wash process - the only difference is that the print must be over-exposed (because of the future bleaching etc.) by at least half a stop to 1 stop. The next session is done with the lights on, soak the print, then bleach, wash well then into the lith developer, then wash and fix and the usual final wash regime. The best paper I've found do far is Foma 131 - haven't tried the Ilford fibre warmtone yet but Tim Rudman and others highly recommend it if you can't get hold of the Foma. You also need to have some Old Brown on hand from your previous lith session, this is added to the lith developer. You may find that the first 3 or 4 prints are awful but after that they just get better and better, I always print more 4 more prints than I need and just sacrifice these first prints. Sorry I can't be more exact with the chemical details but I'm lost without my notes, but don't forget to keep about a litre of the used lith developer to keep as Old Brown for the next lith session, it keeps for ages.
Good luck, Patricia

Ternero - forgot to say it would be a good idea if you can get hold of Tim Rudman's books on Lith Printing and Toning - I got all my information from these 3 or 4 books, would have been lost without them.
Patricia

Trying to answer two things:

1. You can bleach and re-develop both lith prints and regular prints, with varying results. You can also bleach and then re-fix and do nothing with it and end up with a lighter print. No problem, I consider it a creative tool alongside dodging and burning, and is something that I use quite a bit. Bruce Barnbaum is one of the experts in this area, and I learned from him to bleach select areas of a print to accentuate contrast or tone.

2. If you bleach and re-develop a standard print in lith chemistry, there is probably no better paper than Ilford MG (not the warmtone). I have learned from Wolfgang Moersch that you want to overexpose the print in the enlarger about 1/2 stop. Process as normal, and you'll end up with a print that 's darker than you had intended.
The reason you do this is you don't want to completely re-develop the print in lith, because it will end up looking almost exactly like the original! You want to stop at about 90% or so.
Use very dilute lith chemistry, but hot. And be really good about washing your prints between the intermediary steps. Copper sulfate is the bleach you probably want to use, but pot ferri works too.

- Thomas