Foma films and the blue developer syndrome

BetterSense · Sep 4, 2009

If you've ever developed any Foma or Arista.EDU ultra films, you probably noticed the developer is bright blue when you pour it out. Since I used replenished D23, imagine how blue the developer would get after about 10-20 rolls in the same developer. I've been avoiding developing Foma films but it's the only film that I have in 4x5.

Is the blue goo going to harm anything? Is there anything bad about using developer that looks like blue Kool-aide? I use the same developer to develop other, clear-base films and I'd rather not turn them blue.

Philippe Grunchec · Sep 4, 2009

Use a pre-soak!

Thomas Bertilsson · Sep 4, 2009

No it's not harmful. Just develop like normal.

I don't know about Foma, but neither Kodak or Ilford recommend a pre-soak. So far I have never found any evidence that it does any good to your film developing or that not using a presoak is detrimental.
Me knowingly it's only Rollei that recommend a presoak.

I use replenished Xtol, and it does not change color with Foma films, it's still clear. I think the dye that colors the developer will go away as you proceed with your D23 and replenish it anyway.

- Thomas

brianmquinn · Sep 4, 2009

I use this film in Diafine. Bath A gets VERY blue but so far no problems.
I also think a pre-soak is not the answer and may lead to problems.

ntenny · Sep 4, 2009

I've developed some Foma/Arista film in Diafine; the A bath comes out very blue indeed, but so far it has never seemed to have any effect on the developer. Unless there's something peculiar about its interaction with metol, I wouldn't think you would have any problems.

With one-shot developers, I keep the used stuff around in dump jars for quite a while sometimes, and the blue does seem gradually to go away, so I suspect the dye is pretty short-lived in solution. I have no idea what it is or what it breaks down into, though. (The cherry-red from Efke 100 fades even faster.)

I've never understood this---why is every anti-halation dye in the world a different colour? Is there some benefit to using different dye formulations for different films? And what on earth *are* the dyes anyway?

-NT

BetterSense · Sep 4, 2009

Exactly.

I've never understood why plus-x is practically red, and foma is bright blue. It doesn't seem like they could both work.

Uncle Goose · Sep 4, 2009

Fomapan has a blueish base so it will never be completely clear. It doesn't affect anything. There is indeed a difference in color, Foma is blue, Fuji Acros 100 is green, Acros 400 is greenish gray, TMX is rather purple and so on.

JMC1969 · Sep 4, 2009

I've never had this problem using Kodak RS or the Clayton we are now using. Personally, I don't think it will effect your next batch. I know in our E6 processing, Kodak films turn the first developer (B&W Basically) Bright Red and it has never effected any runs thereafter.

JCJackson · Sep 4, 2009

Foma 400 developed in Rodinal yields a spent developer solution that looks like blue-black ink. Since it's one shot, there's no problem. But I have had a related strange coloration of fixer recently while processing Adox CMS 20. I used the recommended Adotech developer, which also came out of the tank looking a bit blue-black. Stop bath seemed unaffected in color, remaining a nice, fresh yellow. But the fix, which I do intend to use again, turned a light rose pink. The color has faded a bit, but is still visible. The negatives were fine, and the film base crystal clear.

Has anyone experienced a similar color change in fixer solution, and does it mean anything?

Photo Engineer · Sep 4, 2009

I'm tired of explaining this. Go do a search on antihalation dyes and acutance dyes. They are both in most films. And, then there is the sensitzing dye itself or the mix of sensitizing dyes. They all gotta come out.

A prewet is always prudent! Kodak uses a prewet in their seminal manual on B&W film processing starting in the 40s.

I forgot to add trimmer dyes, used in most films to fine tune ISO speed if the emulsions are just tad off.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Sep 4, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
A prewet is always prudent! Kodak uses a prewet in their seminal manual on B&W film processing starting in the 40s.

PE

Why do you think ILFORD recommend against a pre-wet?

Tom

Photo Engineer · Sep 4, 2009

Tom;

You would have to ask them. I could only guess. I have done Kodak film both ways and found no significant difference either way except in color film where it is much harder to achieve the starting temperature of 100F unless you use a prewet. I also tend to get more uniform results with a prewet and fewer air bubbles with a prewet.

PE

BetterSense · Sep 4, 2009

I would have thought prewetting the film would cause development time to change. If not maybe I will try a distilled water bath beforehand when I'm using my replenished developer. It means standing around in the dark that much longer, though.

Also diafine reccommends not using a prewet; I think it's because of the 2-bath system...kind of the first bath is the 'prewet' and I guess there's not much you can do about it getting blue.

Speaking of diafine and foma films...I never tried any of my foma films in diafine; what E.I. is good to use?

PhotoJim · Sep 4, 2009

When I did EP2 and RA4 printing, I had issues with streaking if I didn't use a prewet. That's the only time I've ever seen it make a difference.

ntenny · Sep 4, 2009

BetterSense said:
Also diafine reccommends not using a prewet; I think it's because of the 2-bath system...kind of the first bath is the 'prewet' and I guess there's not much you can do about it getting blue.

This is general to two-bath developers, AFAIK. The idea is that the emulsion is supposed to absorb a certain amount of developing agents in the first bath, and you don't want water from the prewet to be "in the way" when that happens.

This analysis makes sense to me, but I can't guarantee that it's actually good chemistry, just that it kinda sounds reasonable.

Speaking of diafine and foma films...I never tried any of my foma films in diafine; what E.I. is good to use?

I've used Fomapan 100 at about EI 200 with reasonable success, but slower might have been better---I've never done careful tests with the combination. With Fomapan 400, I once saw a set of comparison frames that supported using EI 400---this isn't as bad as it sounds, since many people rate that film a lot lower than box speed in practice.

-NT

Photo Engineer · Sep 4, 2009

Do not ever use a prewet with a 2 bath developer!

PE

Tom Kershaw · Sep 4, 2009

PE,

Not using a pre-wet on my Jobo with Pyrocat-HD resulted in some odd contrast characteristics with Delta 100.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Sep 4, 2009

With a single bath developer, odd effects are common without a prewet.

With a 2 bath developer, odd effects are common with a prewet.

Reason: Part A in a 2 bath developer acts as the prewet!

PE

Foma films and the blue developer syndrome

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