Follow on: Color - Chromes or Negs? (or Digital) What do you do these days?

cjbecker · Aug 23, 2020

For E6, I can fully support AGX Imaging https://www.agximaging.com/ in MI. He only does E6 and does an amazing job at it. Not only is his developing top notch, his communication and professionalism is top notch also. By far the best lab I have ever worked with.

NortheastPhotographic · Aug 23, 2020

I am shooting a lot of Ektachrome for my color work. I just love the fine grain, color palette, and completely flat (120) rolls. It scans like a dream for pigment printing.

However when I get my ATL2500 set up it's definitely going to be tempting to run RA4 prints.

JWMster · Aug 23, 2020

Okay... I'm thinking my next color film order might probably have to be E100. I'm trying Ektar100 currently and have a good handle on the Portras.... but there's some appeal in the slide "look". But I'm also thinking it's time to give E6 processing a whirl. Re-reading through the Jobo book makes me think this is what its supposed to have been designed for, so let's see what happens. Chemistry is about the same cost, and assuming the same lifespan ought to cover the same run of films. Tetenal's E6 kit is out of stock for a while however, but that gives me more opportunity to run some shots through on my favorite 35mm sketch machine (Nikon F4).

MattKing · Aug 23, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
Matt, Which labs do you use?

All labs are local in the Vancouver, BC Canada area.
I use the confusingly named "The Lab" for some C41, all medium format E6 and some 35mm E6.
I use ABC Photocolour for some C41 and would probably use them for optical RA4 if I needed a custom enlargement.
ABC and The Lab have top quality professional lines. The Lab does enough E6 to be able to guarantee at least one dip and dunk run each day, and usually more.
I use London Drugs for quick and easy same day 35mm C41 - I don't like but sometimes put up with their inkjet proof prints - and I will sometimes get them to develop my 35mm E6 in their one remaining E6 line, because they still mount the slides. They can be slow, because they only run the line when they have a full batch of customer film. I'm hoping that will improve because from what I've heard their chain wide film developing volumes are increasing, although I don't know whether that applies to E6.
Until recently, I could walk from home to my nearest London Drugs, so that certainly factored in. They are still just a short and convenient drive away, in a shopping centre we go to regularly.

MattKing · Aug 23, 2020

JWMster said:
So do you shoot mostly B&W, or have you "retired" from your own film development? And let me caveat that the more lab work I've done, the more the "thrill" is lessened... it's still there when the negs come out of the tank, but time is ever more precious as the sands run through the glass. Finding the time to actually print.... that's a challenge I haven't managed in some time. And in my view (and many others as well), if you ain't printing, you ain't doin' the half of it: "The only shots you actually make are the ones you push yourself to print." Since I shoot a fair amount of sketches with 35mm these days, by the time you bulk load, shoot, develop, scan, sleeve, etc. it's a fair amount of time involved. I sent my E-6 off so far because the quantities are low and I've not done that, but I'm used to doing C41 and B&W myself. But I wonder at the end of the day whether this is the best use of my time...

With the exception of a few interruptions, including one in the last few months, I've been regularly developing and printing my own black and white for over 50 years.
I haven't worked regularly at colour development or printing for a long time, although I've helped out others a bit. I rely on the good (and satisfactory) labs that are local to me. It is the same for optical colour printing.
Essentially, a lot of my colour development and printing experience is heavily front loaded - high volumes (mostly printing) when I was younger and earning my living at it.
I've never lost my ability to evaluate colour though - I just do it mostly while working with labs (with my work) and in general when I interact with other photographers.
Unless you are blessed with a good, local colour lab, I would suggest you persevere. If you can rely on good consistency from your own work, it is really convenient and worthwhile. It should also get more time efficient.

JWMster · Aug 23, 2020

Matt: Thanks for the encouragement. Gearing up to try some E6 at home. At $10 a commercial roll.... and in some cases nearly $10 a 4X5 sheet... it's more than worth it. Keep the C41 chems in the basement fridge when not in use and that seems to help assure I can get 16 rolls just fine. We'll see how E6 works out. Not as many kit choices.
Planning to head out with the LF camera later today. Lots to do! Thanks! - Skip

MattKing · Aug 23, 2020

JWMster said:
Keep the C41 chems in the basement fridge when not in use and that seems to help assure I can get 16 rolls just fine.

If you can set your fridge to be fairly warm - think wine fridge temperatures - it would be best.

destroya · Aug 23, 2020

90% of my color work is slide film. from 35mm up to 4x5. the rest is ektar. slide film is just easier to work with, for me, in my print process. from picture taking to printing.

john

Donald Qualls · Aug 24, 2020

MattKing said:
If you can set your fridge to be fairly warm - think wine fridge temperatures - it would be best.

I've been thinking about doing this anyway in support of cold developing -- using one-shot B&W chemistry at ~50 F with benzotriazole added to control fog on expired, fogged film. I need to check Craigslist and local thrift stores to see if I can get a dorm fridge that mostly works -- and then try to find a place for it in my darkroom.

JWMster · Aug 24, 2020

Not that I'm freezing my chems, but there is this old Tetenal email ref ( https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...41-product-manager-in-uk.156616/#post-2032441 ) and more besides, that suggest that at least C41 chemistry is more robust than perhaps we've believed. E6 could be a different story (they seem to make the point that this is C41 rather emphatically). But the skinny is that my fridge holds beer, film and C41 chemistry. Anything too sodium oriented might freeze as I did have that problem with Caffenol chems.... but C41 has been cleared.

Okay...flak jacket now on, so I'm ready to dodge the "incoming".

JWMster · Aug 24, 2020

Okay... got my E100 chromes back today. Wow! Will have to play with this some. Definitely. Won't scan these guys until I get a new light box with enough horsepower to do them justice. But I like what I see. Shot with M6 (since sold) and Nikon F100, there's really not a miss in the bunch... except a shot of my black dog where a tad wider F would have helped pull out his fur.
Can't wait to see what how it runs with the Nikon F4... which while heavy as MF is my current 35mm weapon of choice. Yeah..... Alan kind of really nailed this one. Reading over film selection, guess I'm now reading more into folks comments on using E6 except when dynamic range drives for negative films. Been shooting B&W so long.... nice to see the ooh ah of color without having to work it so hard. Just might fit my M.O. "better". Thanks guys!

Ariston · Aug 24, 2020

I just developed some of my chromes I had setting undeveloped in the fridge and, man, I've GOT to shoot more. They are so beautiful - as long as you don't need the dynamic range.

JWMster · Aug 24, 2020

Yes, and with Fall colors coming... I've got to order new film. THe 5 rolls just developed ran back to last Fall... but the season came and went without much color then. And I didn't really get back to consistent shooting until sometime in late March / April.
I've still got 2 or 3 rolls of Fujichrome in the fridge, but I can't say that I was as keen on their output as these recent Kodaks... but that's likely more my view of the subject matter, the handling of the camera, etc. than the film. Like Kodak's ability to dodge the magenta cast btw.

MattKing · Aug 25, 2020

JWMster said:
Won't scan these guys until I get a new light box with enough horsepower to do them justice.

If at all possible, try to set up an electronic flash as your light source.
That, or a full spectrum incandescent (including halogen) source.

Bikerider · Aug 25, 2020

I have not used 'chromes' for about 18 years - and now they are just too expensive to even consider. (For me anyway) I was fortunate to be almost given a top notch digital projector a few years ago that had very little use. It was bought in a auction of property from a company that went bus! Most of my work ends up as images for projection, although quite a lot of it starts out as negatives, both colour and B&W. I am gradually working my way through my negative albums and digitising them into the correct size, format and then saving them on a memory stick. It is absolutely amazing how many images you can store on a 64gb usb stick. I have a long way to go yet and then there are the the med format ones too followed by the boxes of chromes that to be honest have not seen the light of day for a good few years. I always save them onto two identical usb devices because after all that work for to store it on one is just plain stupid.

JWMster · Aug 25, 2020

Matt: From what I can tell, yes, flash definitely works. Haven't actually gone that route yet, but thinking about it. A light source with enough CRI (95 plus) and a sheet of white acrylic in-between the light and the negative seem to be the favored setup. I'm looking into that now. The Logan lightbox I"ve used has been fine for B&W, but like you said, a full spectrum with daylight color temp kind of rules the roost for color negs.

Bikerider: Yes, chrome film at $14 a roll is steep. Compared to Kodak's lower price ProImage film, almost 3X the 36-shot rate. However, I wonder how that compares historically to say... the 1970's? I'd bet the ratio hasn't changed all that much. Sure does change how I think of it however. LF 4X5 makes sense in that it is a single sheet decision and really no more expensive than color negative film. WIth 35mm, it's a staggering price jump.... not quite explained. With 4X5 the premium for E100 over Portra 160 is 9%; In 120, it's 25%, and In 35mm it's 68% more. Relative to other choices in 35mm, Ektar is about the same ratio but relative to ProImage, the ratio increases to a 182% premium, and that's a tad painful. I haven't shot ProImage, but I hear good things.

Wrappers and little cans shouldn't cost all as much as they're charging. Fact is, if it's that sort of premium, then they ought to bag out of the labor and sell it in rolls for bulk loading (which I do for HP5 and FP4). I figure to get 22 rolls of roughly 24 shots out of 100 foot rolls of FP4+, and at that rate, I'm saving roughly $2 a roll over Ilford's single roll price. - after paying for the bulk loader, cartridges and cans. YMMV. Sure, this doesn't erase the premium, but it does reduce it. Otherwise, I think I'm beginning to see for the first time the economic logic of those who prefer to shoot color with their digimachines... assuming you never ever upgrade your digimachine (fat chance btw).

MattKing · Aug 25, 2020

JWMster said:
Wrappers and little cans shouldn't cost all as much as they're charging. Fact is, if it's that sort of premium, then they ought to bag out of the labor and sell it in rolls for bulk loading (which I do for HP5 and FP4).

They don't. But the high volume, dust and damage free loading to exact specifications with no light fog in brand new spools, cassettes and plastic cans do cost a lot.
So called "confectioning" is expensive to do.
A few years ago Harman invested a serious amount of money - which needs to be amortized over time - in new confectioning machinery, because the costs of using their old machinery plus subcontracting some to others were so high.
They apparently are one of the few resources out there that other film suppliers can contract with to do that work.
the actual film itself is often a lot cheaper to make than everything also involved - in particular the costs to distribute it worldwide.

DREW WILEY · Aug 30, 2020

I switched to color neg once it was apparent Cibachrome was on a death spiral. Now I mainly shoot Ektar in 120, 4x5, and 8x10 formats, and print on Fuji RA4 papers. But I also make precision internegs from some of my old chromes for sake of RA4 printing; works great but requires masking skills. I also have a limited number of sets of b&w separation negatives from 8x10 chromes for sake of dye transfer printing, once I get a big enough block of time for that labor-intensive process. I already have all the necessary gear & supplies.

mohmad khatab · Aug 30, 2020

MattKing said:
Basically, control strips and a densitometer.
Plus a relatively rigourous routine.
And adherence to the manufacturer's instructions on how to make use of the information you get from those control strips and the densitometer readings.
By the way, and as I posted in that thread, well I do advocate that sort of methodical and rigorous approach, I have no difficulty with and in fact encourage people who aren't able to maintain such close controls, but still do their own developing and approach that with care.
It is clearly possible to obtain satisfactory results when one is reasonably close to spec. For most people, alternatives like the Sous Vide machines for temperature control are really good alternatives to the classical - and expensive - means of controlling development temperature.
What I have difficulty with is when people assign to the film characteristics that are as likely to come from a myriad of other, uncontrolled or undefined factors.

Would you please tell me where I can get the density meter and test strips?

mohmad khatab · Aug 30, 2020

MattKing said:
If you can set your fridge to be fairly warm - think wine fridge temperatures - it would be best.

What do you mean ?
What is the ideal temperature for a refrigerator in a country where the room temperature is 37 ° C

mshchem · Aug 30, 2020

I love chromes to process and project especially 6x6 with my humble Kindermann projector. I have a Nikon Coolscan that I use for the 35mm. I just received a box of 10 Sheets of Portra 160 8x10" sheet film. I'm going for some autumn and maybe try a portrait. I will make contact prints. Using my Beseler Universal 45 RGB (even though the controller says CMY) dichro head for illumination. Scanning negatives is a pain, scanning a print is easy.

I doubt I will scan the contact prints because what's better than a contact print.

MattKing · Aug 30, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
What do you mean ?
What is the ideal temperature for a refrigerator in a country where the room temperature is 37 ° C

Refrigerators designed for wine keep the contents at a slightly warmer temperature than refrigerators designed for food.
That slightly warmer temperature is better for liquid chemistry - less likely to result in accidental freezing.
The high outside temperature just means that the refrigerator will have to work much harder!

MattKing · Aug 30, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
Would you please tell me where I can get the density meter and test strips?

I'm not sure how easy it is in Egypt to obtain control strips. Unique Photo in the United States is one internet source.
I believe there are a fair number of used densitometers available on eBay and other similar sources.

JWMster · Aug 30, 2020

And from what I've seen on this site, seems a fair number of folks have them. B&W and if you get the right one, color, too.

mohmad khatab · Aug 30, 2020

MattKing said:
I'm not sure how easy it is in Egypt to obtain control strips. Unique Photo in the United States is one internet source.
I believe there are a fair number of used densitometers available on eBay and other similar sources.

We do not have wine refrigerators in Egypt.
I want the perfect temperature to maintain the photographic chemistry.
I remember once reading a discussion between a number of fellow experts here in the forum on this matter ,,
The opinion of the great man (resting peacefully) at the time was that freezing photographic chemistry is not the ideal solution (lest this cause oily tar stains), but he reviewed himself and apologized for this thought and said that (oil stains and tar there are only In process chemistry "C22" only due to benzyl alcohol, the discussion ended with a happy ending. Everyone admits that freezing photographic chemistry is a given and does not result in any harm, rather it is in the interest of photographic chemistry as it freezes the time and space of chemistry He makes photographic chemistry convinced that she is not yet born and that this day is her first day in life and thus her time counter stops as long as she is frozen, and the time counter works only when that photographic chemistry is warmed up for work.
- Therefore, everyone agreed "implicitly" that it is better that the photographic chemistry solutions that are to be frozen should only work "one shot" and be disposed of. Therefore, they should be frozen in small packages and each package should be on the amount of development of one roll or more. .
I personally did this with very good results, and I was able to maintain photographic chemistry solutions for long periods without problems.
Storing photographic chemistry solutions in the refrigerator without freezing is also very successful, but it should be in a dark colored glass bottle, this is what I came up with.
- If you have any comment, I'm happy to see it.
- Regarding the test strips ,, I am looking for an online source that is reliable and permanent. I want test strips for C41, E6 and B / W, also I don’t know how to test the ECN2 developer, I don’t want just a bargain from the auction site ,,
Density meters are okay, I can search for them and no problem.

Follow on: Color - Chromes or Negs? (or Digital) What do you do these days?

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