fogging to reverse instead of E6 reversal bath VNF film

dktucson · Dec 12, 2015

Hello Folks,
A bit of a left field post. A lot of us look to experiment and save money by buying film in bulk. I recently bought a 250ft roll of 70mm VNF (video news film) transparency and I am slitting it down to 120 and retaping on reused backing paper. I processed a roll in Rodinal 1:100 for 90mins semi-stand for FD, then a vinegar/water stop bath & a rinse then gave the reel a couple of strobe pops in lieu of a chemical reversal. The I used home brewed ECN-II chems for the color leg of the journey.
My initial results were a bit of a color spectral shift I'm attributing to uneven light distribution when I popped the flash into the tank with the rolled up film. The issue I'm having is that unrolling the film and giving it even exposure seems to be too much as I get very dense dark blue slides that are damn near bullet-proof.

Is there a "magic bean" of the right intensity & duration of exposure that I'm missing for the "poor mans" reversal?

Flip the reel over for another pop? I'm seeing times from 20 seconds to 3 minutes in various posts.
For anyone that curious I paid $50 for the 250ft roll. Thats 93 rolls or .53 cents a roll for 120 transparency (not too shabby if I can get results)

Gerald C Koch · Dec 12, 2015

Try exposing the film to an incandescent bulb of ~ 100 watts. Wobble the reel to make sure that all portions of the film are exposed. At first try 60 sec exposure for each side.

Prof_Pixel · Dec 12, 2015

I remember using a Number 1 Photoflood to expose Ektachrome film - that's a 250 watt bulb.

mts · Dec 13, 2015

rinse the film for a couple of minutes and then expose the reel as described above. You must remove the reel from its tank! You must hold the reel beneath a lamp, about 100W, and rotate it to thouroughly expose each side of the reel. A minute or two on each side is sufficient and light must penetrate the reel completely. Then return the reel to the processing tank for the remaining steps. If your colors are still off, then your ECN-2 chemistry is bad, your film is bad, or both. Shoot images of the MacBeth chart to make snip tests and then evaluate the processing from these, not from general scenes.

OzJohn · Dec 13, 2015

What a blast from the past - I've never been a big user of reversal film but I have developed lots of it for other people and used a light to fog E2/E3 film (Ektachrome-X era). Happy to be corrected but it is hard to imagine that you could give the film too much light but on the other hand too little or uneven light would be fatal. I also recall warnings to be careful of excessive heat from the lamps drying out the emulsion during re-exposure. Good luck with your experiments. OzJohn

dktucson · Dec 13, 2015

Thanks for the tip, while most of the house has CFL lights I think we have some incandescents left in the pantry.
I believe the film to be "good" as I have gotten at least that far in getting a good exposure.
I checked the chems with some remjet film and that roll was fine.

Rudeofus · Dec 13, 2015

Many places convert to fluorescent light or even LED light, and Europe even limits sale of incandescent lights. Strangely, according to (there was a url link here which no longer exists) LED light seems to be unsuitable with its high output of blue light.

So I was wondering whether a few pops from a small compact flash would do the trick.

@OzJohn: You can overexpose in this case because excessive exposure will create printout silver - silver that will be missing in the color developing stage.

dktucson · Dec 13, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Many places convert to fluorescent light or even LED light, and Europe even limits sale of incandescent lights. Strangely, according to (there was a url link here which no longer exists) LED light seems to be unsuitable with its high output of blue light.

So I was wondering whether a few pops from a small compact flash would do the trick.

@OzJohn: You can overexpose in this case because excessive exposure will create printout silver - silver that will be missing in the color developing stage.

Here in america the "anti-gubmint" folks still cling to the incandescent bulbs. Some see the pricing of CFL's and LEDs as exhorbitant without factoring in the energy savings on the power bill long term. The standard incandescents are still widely sold. The strobe I used was my big Sunpak 544 bracket mounted flash with a GN of 140 as I recall it's rating. The sample posted was from 2-3 blasts from the top of the tank on one side. Rudeofus might be onto something in using a dinky hot-shoe flash with less output.. Unreeling the film and giving it muliple pops with the Sunpack yielded the bullet-proof blues as with this sample here.

Rudeofus · Dec 13, 2015

dktucson said:
Unreeling the film and giving it muliple pops with the Sunpack yielded the bullet-proof blues as with this sample here.

There are some very odd streaks at the bottom of your test image. Is this a processing artefact or just from poor conversion to digital?

dktucson · Dec 13, 2015

Rudeofus said:
There are some very odd streaks at the bottom of your test image. Is this a processing artefact or just from poor conversion to digital?

Process artifact. I use 70mm perforated film slit down 1 edge to 120. I used rodinal 1:100 semi-stand and I suspect this is bromide drag from the sprockets on one side. Looks like it needs more frequent agitation. I did not get this using similar 70mm Portra160 in home made C41 chems. On this shot I do see a bit of uneven asphalt color -this film expired in '92

Athiril · Dec 14, 2015

I take film off the reel when and put it back on when exposing to light usually just to be thorough.

Using rodinal as a first developer for reversals.. and stand at that.. I would make something for the job rather than try and use Rodinal.

dktucson · Dec 14, 2015

Athiril said:
I take film off the reel when and put it back on when exposing to light usually just to be thorough.

Using rodinal as a first developer for reversals.. and stand at that.. I would make something for the job rather than try and use Rodinal.

I've seen some postings here & there of people using rodinal, dektol 1:5 ( I use that for high contrast B&W film dev but the person using it for FD complained about grain) Xtol, D-19 , D76 stock, Acufine.
What light source do you use Athiril? At what distance & duration?

Athiril · Dec 16, 2015

Room light for a few seconds is sufficient if the film is openly exposed.

Anyway, see this - http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_11.pdf

It contains the following first developer formulas, which process for 3m 10s at close to 38 celsius

I would first process as close as possible to first developer specification, if it has fog you can modify the first dev formula to eliminate fogging more or less.

I've done it with fogged E-6 film:

The formula I used I posted in here - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

But it's for E-6 film.

To reduce the fogging of a reversal material, I would take the original formula, leave the solvent and alkali level intact, and increase the restrainer amount, and possibly increase the ratio to metol and HQ (or phenidone and HQ) in your case.

dktucson · Dec 16, 2015

Athiril said:
Room light for a few seconds is sufficient if the film is openly exposed.

Anyway, see this - http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/uploadedfiles/motion/h24_11.pdf

It contains the following first developer formulas, which process for 3m 10s at close to 38 celsius

I would first process as close as possible to first developer specification, if it has fog you can modify the first dev formula to eliminate fogging more or less.

I've done it with fogged E-6 film:

The formula I used I posted in here - (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

But it's for E-6 film.

To reduce the fogging of a reversal material, I would take the original formula, leave the solvent and alkali level intact, and increase the restrainer amount, and possibly increase the ratio to metol and HQ (or phenidone and HQ) in your case.

2nd attempt--dektol 1:5 7mins at 102f for the FD, 2 pops with a lesser canon speedlite flash then my ECN-II juice. some magenta mottle on the one edge but a somewhat believeable transparency--a bit on the thin side but at least it's not quite from Mars like my first attempt--just need to adjust my chem times (I can only improve from here LOL)

mts · Dec 17, 2015

You can reverse by using an outdoor flood lamp mounted in a weatherproof fixture above the darkroom sink. The outdoor floods are water resistant and made of heavy glass, and of course are incandescent. They are safer to use over the sink because they will not shatter if splashed.

Rudeofus · Dec 17, 2015

When you test your reversal bath or light technique, always make sure you compare your results against a proper light exposure. I've thrown out many reversal bath recipes after comparing their Dmax against a real and proper light reexposure ...
There is absolutely no point in adjusting CD chemistry until your reexposure technique matches the results of the original procedure.

dktucson · Dec 17, 2015

Rudeofus said:
When you test your reversal bath or light technique, always make sure you compare your results against a proper light exposure. I've thrown out many reversal bath recipes after comparing their Dmax against a real and proper light reexposure ...
There is absolutely no point in adjusting CD chemistry until your reexposure technique matches the results of the original procedure.

I see what you're saying--verify the outcome of the re-exposure reversal so I know it's not a fluke before jumping to making more changes then end up being "lost in space" from inconsistent results changing too much stuff at once

fogging to reverse instead of E6 reversal bath VNF film

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