Fogging issue - any solutions?

Dkirk · Oct 2, 2013

Just developed a roll from a new to me secondhand rollfilm back. Unfortunatly there is a problem with the mechanism in the winder - i.e. on one or two frames it winds continiously and the automatic interlocks don't engage so I've found I'm having to use the red frame counter window which produces the effect in the attached image. Under examination the window I'd describe as more of a mid-orange, rather than red. . .

Any suggestions on how to remedy this situation, or what use over the window so I can use it as a frame counter?

Peltigera · Oct 2, 2013

With panchromatic film, the window colour is not so important. Most of my medium format cameras rely on the red window and two of them have no cover for it. I do not experience any problems with fogging on the film.

What film are you using? Having asked that, I have used Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Adox and Efke films with no problems.

The backing paper is thick enough to stop light - if it was not you would have numbers and things printed onto the film as well as those stripes. I would suggest that you have more problems than just a dodgy interlock with your roll-film backs and there is light leakage from elsewhere, not from the red window.

Dkirk · Oct 2, 2013

Sorry thought I'd mentioned it - it was Hp5, also the fogging is across the full width of the film right through the rebate too. So it seems to limit the problem area to the back. Since you're on the right island for postage, and suggestions for decent repairmen? Getting the interlock fixed would be nice, but can live without. Diagnosing the leak is the main issue any suggestions?

Peltigera · Oct 2, 2013

Sorry, I don't know of any repair people who do proper cameras.

A further thought - if it was related to the red window, you would get a fairly localised line of fogging along the film in the direction of winding rather than over the whole width of the film. This looks to be 6x9 format which should give you a line left to right. I think you have a more general light leak.

John Koehrer · Oct 2, 2013

Initially tape over all the gaps/lines where the thing opens or separates.
That'll eliminate those areas. If the leak is still there it will be where the back mounts to the camera.
Missing light seals maybe? If it's older, probably velvet ribbon was used.

summicron1 · Oct 3, 2013

i have never in my life seen a print like that -- looks like a series of test strips. Did all the frames come out like this?

This has nothing to do with the red window. This is not fogging. This is -- cripes, I dunno what it is -- looks as if the shutter was a horizontal-running Focal plane shutter with a bad case of the stutters. And you say the problem is on the edges of the film too?

Tell you what -- try a second roll of film, use the red window with a bit of black electrical tape over it between exposures. Report back and tell us what sort of camera you are using as well, and use fresh film.

Dkirk · Oct 3, 2013

Yep all frames turned out like that Its a Makina II and sourcing any kind of constructive clues for a service manual is proving problematic. There is a felted metal flap that normally covers the red window. The banding occurs the full length of the film so it seems related to the film being wound on. . .

Xmas · Oct 3, 2013

Dkirk said:
Yep all frames turned out like that Its a Makina II and sourcing any kind of constructive clues for a service manual is proving problematic. There is a felted metal flap that normally covers the red window. The banding occurs the full length of the film so it seems related to the film being wound on. . .

please confirm are the rebates at the edges of film fogged or clear if they are ok it means the shutter rather than body/back...

the shutter could be running uneveningly or capping badly on my phone difficult to tell but looks like uneven running.

the distinction is made if the fogging is obscuring the image it is capping if the image is more dense it is uneven running.

the shutter might leak at either end of its run check by pointing camera at light for leak

probably lube turned to gum if uneven run and unless you have experience a pro service person necessary sorry.

Capping could be anything

if the edge rebates are fogged you need a dark room or changing bag to localize problem I'll tell what I'd do if you confirm edges fogged.

Dkirk · Oct 3, 2013

yes indeed the edges of the rebate are fogged - I've checked the shutter (1930s vintage Compur) and it seems as good as an 80-odd year old leaf shutter can be so I think that rules out banding as a result of the shutter. Awaiting delivery of a newer (still pushing 70-80yrs old) back supposed to be a better match for the Makina II - the existing one appears to be one better matched to the Makina I, though still a good fit on the II. . . the felt light trap between the camera and the back also appears to be in good repair, so it's unlikely to be the source of the issue.

summicron1 · Oct 3, 2013

I repeat, this is not fogging.

if this is shot with a blade shutter on the lens, and the problem reaches the edge of the film, then the problem is with the film. There is no way winding the film on would cause such evenly spaced banding, with more exposure on one side of each band and less on the other, over and over.

Dare one ask how the film was developed?

Whatever, try another roll. Make sure it is fresh. Process carefully and evenly. Report back.

E. von Hoegh · Oct 3, 2013

Has the film been x-rayed?

Xmas · Oct 3, 2013

summicron1 said:
I repeat, this is not fogging.

Bit emphatic if it reaches the edge of the film then the problem is not through the film gate between the feed spool and the gate or between the gate and the take up spool or loading onto dev tank.

So load the film onto the take up spool as normal but don't close back instead zip the film and camera into a changing bag with a pencil.

You then need to wind on the film until you are sure you have got past frame 1 in the dark then mark the left edge of the frame and the right edge of the frame on the backing paper and close the back.

Remove the camera from the bag leave it outside for a minute or two put it back I bag and wind on several frames mark with pencil as before. Remove from bag take a shot put back in bag wind to end remove camera from bag unload film and soup as normal keep backing paper to align backing paper with negative strip.

If you have no fogging then it may be a artifice of winding on.

If you have fogging then it should be easy to identify were it is occurring in the camera by aligning the exposed frame and the paper and the camera.

You don't have to do this exactly you can vary it the pencil marks and a single exposed frame are the key. But make notes of what you intend to do.

summicron1 · Oct 3, 2013

i'm emphatic because this can not be fogging. At least, not fogging through his camera or film holder.

Look, there's a whole picture on the piece of film. I presume the rest of the roll has finished pictures as well, all with this VERY evenly spaced banding of over- and under-exposure, the banding reaching to the edge of the film.

You're right, it didn't come through the film gate from the lens, but how could it have come through winding the film? Do you, does anyone, wind a frame of film 10-evenly spaced distances for each frame?

So, by elimination of the impossible, the only thing left (thanks sherlock holmes) however seemingly improbably must be the answer. The bands were on the film before he shot it, or occurred during processing, not exposure.

I keep saying -- shoot another roll, see what happens.

Dkirk · Oct 3, 2013

E. von Hoegh said:
Has the film been x-rayed?

Not to my knowedge, other films from this same batch I've used have not exhibited the same problem.

The roll was processed along with another from a TLR in 1:100 Rodinal for over an hour without any problems (other than an instance of double exposure, and evidence the slow speeds are off below 1/60th intermitantly).

Still foxed by the cause, but I'll be putting another roll through it, and the other back, that was delivered today as hopefully the chances of two backs having the exact same problem are relativley low. . .

Any suggestions on the best supplier for repair parts and velvet light-trap material - I received a sheet of light-trap felt and in this case for the potential repair work that may be needed, I'm a little dubious. . .

pentaxuser · Oct 3, 2013

I take it that as you have referred to another poster in the U.K. as being on the "right island" and asked for a repairer that you too are U.K. based. If so then I can think of two good repairers, neither of whom will be cheap.

Newton and Ellis in Liverpool and Ed Trzoska in Leicester or Leicestershire. I don't have their website links but google both names and you can at least speak to them.

There are others. Google will no doubt give you previous threads from APUG as well. It usually throws the kitchen sink at you when you google

pentaxuser

MattKing · Oct 3, 2013

I think it is some combination of a winding problem and a light leak - I would run a roll through the holder with all shots taken with a lens cap on. See if you see "waves" of fogging.

Dkirk · Oct 3, 2013

pentaxuser said:
I take it that as you have referred to another poster in the U.K. as being on the "right island" and asked for a repairer that you too are U.K. based. If so then I can think of two good repairers, neither of whom will be cheap.

Spot on - one of my issues about sending gear abroad is with the kidnap and ransom of gear on its return for VAT, import and handling charges. . . Its been suggested elsewhere I send it to Plaubel over in Germany but at a figure of near the £200 mark that's more than I'd paid for it. . . Anyone else miss the days when it was £2.50 or less for 120 film?

Xmas · Oct 3, 2013

summicron1 said:
presume the rest of the roll has finished pictures as well, all with this VERY evenly spaced banding of over- and under-exposure, the banding reaching to the edge of the film.

You're right, it didn't come through the film gate from the lens, but how could it have come through winding the film? Do you, does anyone, wind a frame of film 10-evenly spaced distances for each frame?

But they are not evenly spaced I've put a venier caliper on my phone display, this means e.g. it might be leakage due to operating the wind on knob in small steps or variations of side force on knob.

On my phone it looks more like fogging even the variation in density...

Can you look again please.

Dkirk · Oct 4, 2013

So rather surprisingly, the newer back arrived from France (Posted Saturday and arrived Thursday. . . while Royal Mail takes the same time to deliver a small packet from 60 miles away . . . ) It should help diagnose the problem - if it works, and the older one still produces problems, then I Know its the back. If the new one produces similar, then it's somewhere where the on the body where it meets the back. I'll keep you posted, just building an order for http://ag-photographic.co.uk/

gone · Oct 4, 2013

I agree, it's impossible that this is fogging. I too have never seen anything like it. It looks like a test strip on a darkroom print. It certainly has nothing to do w/ the red window....you don't even need anything back there, as 120 film has backing paper. I've pried the red windows out of many old folders when they got so dark w/ age that I could not see the film numbers through them, and simply had an open hole back there (w/ a bit of black tape over it when I wasn't checking it). No issues whatsoever.

Maybe there's a light leak somewhere, and that's the creases in the bellows folds we're seeing.

coa_lund · Dec 26, 2013

I havet super-ikonta 6x9 from 1934 with the traditionalism red window. I normally use tri-x with this camera. I havet found necessary to cover the read Windows with black tape to avoid fogging. The fogging appears as somewhat foggy circles of the same size as the window. Of course the tape must be removed when I advance the film, and this is best done away from bright sunlight.
Carl

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

BobBill · Jan 6, 2014

If I see this correctly, the pic was taken using a 69 back...likely on 45 camera frame. You view it, it appears to be strips as noted. It seems to me that the problem is a light leak in the back...likely where it seals along the edge...thinking here of my old Crown Graphic...and, as the film passed by, each lingering crank allowed added light...assuming a knob. If it was a lever, and two swings, not sure at this point, but looks most definitely a light leak, a small one...also as someone inferred earlier. Just my guess-2 pence worth.

R.Gould · Jan 6, 2014

What you are getting does not appear to me to be fogging, at least not from the red window, all but 3 of the MF cameras I use are folder's and as such are red window cameras, and I have yet to have any fogging from them, If you have a between lens shutter then you could have a general light leak, Could be a problem with processing. For a reliable repair person then in the UK the best I know of are Newton and Ellis in Liverpool, They have repaired a few of my old cameras and I have never had a problem.

Fogging issue - any solutions?

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