Fogged Paper?

Kirth Gersen · Apr 8, 2019

Very Newb question, but I can't find a clear answer on the interwebs.

I recently acquired two boxes of paper very cheap. 16x12" Ilford RC Glossy and 10x8" Adox Glossy. I mixed up totally fresh chemicals, and tried printing to both. I knew something was wrong with the Ilford as soon as I opened the packet, the paper was a bit stuck to each other. It just went jet black as soon as I put it in the developer. The Adox showed the image, but the output was very grey and lacking in contrast. To check it wasn't the developer, I used tried and trusted paper and it worked fine.

Both sets of paper are totally unusable IMO. What do you suppose the reasons are for the two different results?

Thanks

Richard
ps, my supplier promises to replace.

removedacct1 · Apr 8, 2019

With the Ilford, I bet someone opened the package in the daylight. The Adox sounds like it’s very old, and very old papers can deliver grayed-out whites and weak blacks. This is undoubtedly why you got them cheap: they were unusable.

Kirth Gersen · Apr 8, 2019

Thanks, I understand the Adox, but the Ilford package was not opened when I got it. And I opened it in the same darkroom conditions as before where I have had till now 100% success. A totally black paper means totally exposed to light, right? how could this be?

dpurdy · Apr 8, 2019

I was just given some 20 year old boxes of various types of paper. The Ilford glossy RC was completely fogged so that it processed out to black even without exposure, straight out of the box. The rest, (Brilliant, Ilford WTFB, Ilford Matt FB) all had slight graying of the whites... fixable with benzotriazole. Actually pretty impressed with the boxes that were only slightly gray after 20 years non refridgerated. Paper fogs itself over time.

MattKing · Apr 8, 2019

What type of paper is it? Can you post a photo of the back/wrap around label, with all the technical stuff on it?
If it is old enough, it could even be developer incorporated paper designed for activation processing. If so, it has been trying to develop itself since it was manufactured.

pentaxuser · Apr 8, 2019

If your supplier has offered to replace both boxes then we may be entering into an academic discussion only, i.e. interesting to get to the bottom of the problem but not crucial to your future printing.

If the paper was cheap is the supplier replacing it with new or newer stuff for the same price and does he need it to be returned? If so any further experimenting with it may be not be possible.

I am unsure how long Adox paper has been on the market but in the time I think it has been made I am surprised that it has lost that much contrast. The key test here is to print small sections at different grades, say 1-5. If there is no or little difference in the contrast then the paper is "shot"

As far as the Ilford paper turning completely black is concerned this is a puzzle unless it has been inadvertently exposed while being re-bagged. If you can, try a sheet from say the middle of the pack to see what happens when you expose and develop it. It may be that only the top sheet or top few sheets are affected

It might be as dpurdy has said but if never exposed then I'd have thought the fogging has to be very bad to turn black if developed without exposure. I had some MGIII so really old and while it lacked any contrast the paper was only mid-grey on the borders and nothing like black

Can you say who your supplier is? If it's a regular photographic retailer then I am surprised that any paper stock is old enough to be severely fogged or have very little contrast range left

pentaxuser

Kirth Gersen · Apr 8, 2019

MattKing said:
What type of paper is it? Can you post a photo of the back/wrap around label, with all the technical stuff on it?
If it is old enough, it could even be developer incorporated paper designed for activation processing. If so, it has been trying to develop itself since it was manufactured.

There you go.

Kirth Gersen · Apr 8, 2019

pentaxuser said:
If your supplier has offered to replace both boxes then we may be entering into an academic discussion only, i.e. interesting to get to the bottom of the problem but not crucial to your future printing.

If the paper was cheap is the supplier replacing it with new or newer stuff for the same price and does he need it to be returned? If so any further experimenting with it may be not be possible.

I am unsure how long Adox paper has been on the market but in the time I think it has been made I am surprised that it has lost that much contrast. The key test here is to print small sections at different grades, say 1-5. If there is no or little difference in the contrast then the paper is "shot"

As far as the Ilford paper turning completely black is concerned this is a puzzle unless it has been inadvertently exposed while being re-bagged. If you can, try a sheet from say the middle of the pack to see what happens when you expose and develop it. It may be that only the top sheet or top few sheets are affected

It might be as dpurdy has said but if never exposed then I'd have thought the fogging has to be very bad to turn black if developed without exposure. I had some MGIII so really old and while it lacked any contrast the paper was only mid-grey on the borders and nothing like black

Can you say who your supplier is? If it's a regular photographic retailer then I am surprised that any paper stock is old enough to be severely fogged or have very little contrast range left

pentaxuser

Would rather not mention the supplier. A one man band who has been good in the past, and is concerned enough to come to see me about it. He has supplied me with cheap paper in the past which has been perfect. I guess it is a risk I take by buying it. I am baffled by the Ilford black paper. it could have been me, but I just don't see how, given I had opened it in the same conditions as other paper which were fine.

MattKing · Apr 8, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
There you go.

That Ilford paper is Multigrade II, which was replaced by Multigrade III in 1990. So it is at least 30 years old.
Just think what you would be like if you were stored in a small, light tight box for 30 years!

pentaxuser · Apr 8, 2019

Thanks Kirth. The pictures explain it all. It is Agfa paper not Adox and even if it is the last run of paper before Agfa closed then it is, I think, at least 14-15 years old. Matt has covered it all on the Ilford paper

I understand why you may not want to say who the supplier is but I suspect he has obtained from somewhere a stock of quite old Agfa paper and really ancient Ilford MGII though where it has been sitting for over 30 years is anybody's guess. Unless he has more recent paper to replace it with then unfortunately there is every reason to believe that all the Ilford MGII will be completely "shot" and unless the Agfa paper he sent originally was from a much earlier run than just before Agfa closed and he has stuff that is from the last run of Agfa paper then it may be difficult or impossible to restore any contrast in it

You might want to consider asking the supplier to test a sheet from his replacement batch before he sends it, assuming he knows anything about darkroom paper and has the facility to test.

If he thinks darkroom paper is like any other "normal" paper and is "as good as new" indefinitely until opened in safelight conditions then you might want to warn him that he may have some dissatisfied customers amongst the others he has sold it to. If he does know anything about darkroom paper then what he has done in selling the Ilford paper especially beggars belief

I hope he is willing to reimburse you the cost of return and then consider reimbursement of your original expenditure and stops selling the rest to others unless he warns them of its age and the likely problems with it.

pentaxuser

winger · Apr 8, 2019

Since it's been established that these aren't really useable as regular darkroom paper, are you at all interested in trying lith printing or lumen printing? I don't know if either of these would be good for lith, but it might be worth trying if you're willing. Lumen is even easier - no chemicals have to be involved (though fixer can be used). Just a thought.

mshchem · Apr 8, 2019

Yeah, Ciba-Geigy sold Ilford eons ago. Also the Ilfospeed paper was developer incorporated paper. There's literally developer in the emulsion. Turned to gunk. Could be some of the black is degraded developing agent.
Fortunately Ilford's current line is fabulous and very reasonable in price.

Kirth Gersen · Apr 9, 2019

pentaxuser said:
If he does know anything about darkroom paper then what he has done in selling the Ilford paper especially beggars belief

I hope he is willing to reimburse you the cost of return and then consider reimbursement of your original expenditure and stops selling the rest to others unless he warns them of its age and the likely problems with it.

pentaxuser

Hmm, I am very disappointed that he has tried to pass these off on me. There is nothing he can gain by doing so, and much that he can lose. He has been in the business all his life, and knows darkrooms inside out, so there is no excuse. So will take him gently to task on this, and insist on a refund or a much better replacement when he visits me later this week.

Kirth Gersen · Apr 9, 2019

winger said:
Since it's been established that these aren't really useable as regular darkroom paper, are you at all interested in trying lith printing or lumen printing? I don't know if either of these would be good for lith, but it might be worth trying if you're willing. Lumen is even easier - no chemicals have to be involved (though fixer can be used). Just a thought.

Thanks for the idea, but will much rather get some decent replacement paper.

Kirth Gersen · Apr 9, 2019

mshchem said:
Yeah, Ciba-Geigy sold Ilford eons ago. Also the Ilfospeed paper was developer incorporated paper. There's literally developer in the emulsion. Turned to gunk. Could be some of the black is degraded developing agent.
Fortunately Ilford's current line is fabulous and very reasonable in price.

Thanks for this info. i will advise my supplier of this, and hopefully he will realise that Photrio is watching my back!

AgX · Apr 9, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
I knew something was wrong with the Ilford as soon as I opened the packet, the paper was a bit stuck to each other.

Seemingly next to old age it was stored in humid conditions for some time. High humidity most probably increases th process of fogging.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 9, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
Very Newb question, but I can't find a clear answer on the interwebs.

I recently acquired two boxes of paper very cheap. 16x12" Ilford RC Glossy and 10x8" Adox Glossy. I mixed up totally fresh chemicals, and tried printing to both. I knew something was wrong with the Ilford as soon as I opened the packet, the paper was a bit stuck to each other. It just went jet black as soon as I put it in the developer. The Adox showed the image, but the output was very grey and lacking in contrast. To check it wasn't the developer, I used tried and trusted paper and it worked fine.

Both sets of paper are totally unusable IMO. What do you suppose the reasons are for the two different results?

Thanks

Richard
ps, my supplier promises to replace.

sounds to me that the Adox paper was too old and the Ilford paper got light somewhere.

AgX · Apr 9, 2019

Light-fogged throughout the whole stack? (If I understand the OP right.)

pentaxuser · Apr 9, 2019

The supplier may be a decent guy and just trying to make a living by obtaining cheap paper, most of all of which was OK in the past. However to help him help you and other customer,s he really needs to test a sheet for contrast and fogging, given its age. If he knows about such matters, as he appears to do from what you have said about him, then I am amazed he doesn't test.

If it were me as a customer I'd certainly accept one less sheet per box for the sake of testing. OK the price may have to go up a bit but better that than receiving useless paper

pentaxuser

Team ADOX · Apr 9, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
There you go.

As it is clearly seen, that is not ADOX paper, but former Agfa paper. Agfa did their last coating runs of BW paper in 2005. But your box is definitely even older, because the last boxes produced in 2005 had a different labelling. Your box has an older label and therefore must be older than 15 years. The age and maybe in addition even problematic storage conditions have resulted in a quality loss.
And as MattKing correctly said, Multigrade II is from the 80ies. So even older than the Agfa MCP, which was introduced in the mid 90ies.
To avoid such problems in the future: Just buy fresh materials from current production.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO

Kirth Gersen · Apr 9, 2019

I've learned my lesson and won't be buying cheap/old paper anymore!

MattKing · Apr 9, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
I've learned my lesson and won't be buying cheap/old paper anymore!

Except for fun, at a extremely low price that makes the risk worthwhile .
As for your supplier, maybe the paper is so old that even he did not realize how old it is.

winger · Apr 9, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
Thanks for the idea, but will much rather get some decent replacement paper.

Completely understandable. New/fresh Ilford is great paper. If the boxes were sealed, I'd guess your supplier didn't realize just how old they were and figured they'd be ok if sealed.

Team ADOX · Apr 10, 2019

Kirth Gersen said:
I've learned my lesson and won't be buying cheap/old paper anymore!

On ADOX paper and photo chemistry you will find the production date of the products on the labels.
So you will always know whether you have got fresh material from current production from your supplier.

We wish you lots of fun and success in the darkroom.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO

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