Fogged paper; how much benzotriazole?

Matthew Gorringe · Feb 5, 2008

Hello,
I am trying to save some fogged Ilford Galerie Grd3. Hard to describe the extent of fogging but I would say it's more than slight but not severe.

I have tried adding a 1% solution of BTA to my Dektol (1:2) in varying amounts but have seen no effect so far up to 70ml BTA 1% per litre of working strength solution.

Developing strips of the fogged paper alongside some fresh Grd2 Galerie and increasing the BTA up to the amount mentioned above I can see no difference between 20ml/litre, 50ml/litre and 70ml/litre.

How far can I go with BTA? Is this experience normal?

Thanks very much, Matt.

Les McLean · Feb 6, 2008

Matt, if you are developing the print for longer than one minute the fogging is likely to return.

Matthew Gorringe · Feb 6, 2008

Thanks for the tip Les, ouch.

I normally develop this paper for 3 minutes in fresh developer to get full contrast. I'll try a shorter time at 1:1.

Matt.

Rich Ullsmith · Feb 6, 2008

That's too bad, its beautiful paper. But it is not irreplaceable. If your time is more valuable than your money, playing with your developer is probably not worth it. Sometimes a quick bleach and fix of your print will snap it up and get you a white. And this paper will also lith, and I have found that a little fog is not noticeable.

Photo Engineer · Feb 6, 2008

Matt;

If you can get it, phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole is more effective in these situations.

PE

snallan · Feb 6, 2008

Hi Matt, if you are into brewing your own developers this article on the Unblinking Eye has an amidol formula for use with vintage papers, which may be of interest.

Matthew Gorringe · Feb 6, 2008

Thanks for the great advice everyone.

I've got about $300 of paper that I would like to save so a little experimentation is probably worth the time and effort. Besides, I might learn something. On the other hand I am resigned to having to replace it in order to complete the portfolio I'd started printing on Grd2 knowing I will probably end up with shift in image tone and may not be able to recover all the contrast.

It might be some time before I can report back (2nd baby due on Tuesday) but I'll make sure I let people know how I get on.

Matt.

Cor · Feb 7, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Matt;

If you can get it, phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole is more effective in these situations.

PE

PE

Could you elaborate a bit on this compound (it's 1-Pehnyl-1H-tetrazole-5-thiol, CAS 86-93-1 right?).

So it works better than BZT?

No shift in final colour?

How do you make a stock solution and at what end concentration does one use it?

It smells bad (rotten egg)?

Thanks,

Best,

Cor

maxbloom · Feb 10, 2008

Cor said:
PE

Could you elaborate a bit on this compound (it's 1-Pehnyl-1H-tetrazole-5-thiol, CAS 86-93-1 right?).

So it works better than BZT?

No shift in final colour?

How do you make a stock solution and at what end concentration does one use it?

It smells bad (rotten egg)?

Thanks,

Best,

Cor

All mercapto compounds smell bad. The compound that makes shit smell like shit IIRC is a mercapto ester.

I'm also curious if this is usable in an Amidol recipe?

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 11, 2008

A friend of mine has turned me onto an old formula by Defender called 58D. It has Chlorohydroquinone in it and I can get virtually fog free prints from batches of old paper that fog pretty badly in other developers.
Worth trying.
- Thomas

Sanjay Sen · Feb 11, 2008

Thomas, do you happen to have the formula for the Defender D-58? Google didn't seem to bring up anything. I have a pack (or two) of Agfa paper that is fogged and am loathe to throw it out - nobody wants it either. This would be a good experiment.

Cor · Feb 18, 2008

Sanjay Sen said:
Thomas, do you happen to have the formula for the Defender D-58? Google didn't seem to bring up anything. I have a pack (or two) of Agfa paper that is fogged and am loathe to throw it out - nobody wants it either. This would be a good experiment.

..sorry, a bit late here but anyway: (picked it searching the internet)

Here is the formula from the “Photo-Lab-Index” 1949 version

Defender 58-D
Water 750ml
Sodium Sulfite 16.0grams
Chlor-hydroquinone 4.0grams
Sodium Carbonate 16.0Grams
Potassium Bromide 0.6grams
Water to make 1Liter

Develop for at least 4 minutes. With more exposure and less time in the developer tones will be browner but some deepness in the shadows will be sacrificed.

Chlor-hydroquinone stays active even down into the 50s°F range. Much lower then Hydroquinone.

I would like to hear of your results, if you use this formula.

............

Good luck,

Best,

Cor

Cor · Feb 18, 2008

For completeness: here is the link were I found the info
Dead Link Removed

Cor said:
..sorry, a bit late here but anyway: (picked it searching the internet)

Here is the formula from the Photo-Lab-Index 1949 version

Defender 58-D
Water 750ml
Sodium Sulfite 16.0grams
Chlor-hydroquinone 4.0grams
Sodium Carbonate 16.0Grams
Potassium Bromide 0.6grams
Water to make 1Liter

Develop for at least 4 minutes. With more exposure and less time in the developer tones will be browner but some deepness in the shadows will be sacrificed.

Chlor-hydroquinone stays active even down into the 50s°F range. Much lower then Hydroquinone.

I would like to hear of your results, if you use this formula.

............

Good luck,

Best,

Cor

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2008

And the big problem here is that Chloro HQ is no longer manufactured AFAIK. If it is made, it would be very expensive. If anyone finds it, let me know.

PE

Sanjay Sen · Feb 18, 2008

Thanks, Cor, for posting the formula. It will take me a while to gather the chemicals, but it should be worth a try - provided I can find Chloro-hydroquinone, as PE mentioned it is not manufactured anymore.

jgjbowen · Feb 18, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
And the big problem here is that Chloro HQ is no longer manufactured AFAIK. If it is made, it would be very expensive. If anyone finds it, let me know.

PE

PE

I just ordered some from www.alfa.com

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2008

John;

Thanks. I did a search a year ago and could not find it. I'll have to check it out.

PE

Rlibersky · Feb 18, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
And the big problem here is that Chloro HQ is no longer manufactured AFAIK. If it is made, it would be very expensive. If anyone finds it, let me know.

PE

I posted this formula awhile ago. It took some searching to find a distributor of this chemical. The cost is a little less then a $1 a gram with the extra shipping charge. I bought all they had at the time. Good to see some could be bought recently.

I've had alot of success with papers as old as the teens. Tom has seen some of the work and can vouch for this. Edwal 111 (formula can be found in articles) was made with Glycin and Chloro HQ. This formula didn't fog my paper either. Have not tried it on anything older then 1949 though.

I hope to hear more on the printing of old papers and would like to see other formulas. Good Luck

Randy

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 18, 2008

Yep, Randy's prints were mostly squeaky clean and gorgeous.

I'm going to try the 58D developer tomorrow with some Agfa Portriga Rapid from the 80s, along with some Velox that expired in 1947. The Velox has actually looked great in Ansco 130, and I intend to try it with Amidol too.

- Thomas

- Thomas

JohnFinch · Feb 24, 2008

Here's an old paper restorer that I have used in the past for this very same problem. The advantage of this one is that I always have Pot Bromide in my cupboard because it's used in many developers I make.

Water 40C 700ml
Potassium bromide 100g
Water to make 1 litre

Just add 10ml of Paper Restorer solution to your working strength developer, at most 20ml. Develop the print for as short a time as possible or you may experience chemical fogging. Another way to use this restorer is to immerse the exposed paper in this solution for 1 minute followed by development,
again for as short a time possible.

Hope this helps.

John
Pictorialplanet.com

Paul Verizzo · Feb 24, 2008

A losing battle...

I had a big roll of paper that I loved, but it was a decade or more out of date. If I put in enough benzatriazole to stop the fog, the highlights went with it. Potassium bromide does the same thing except it takes more of it and can start effecting image tone. BZ doesn't do it to any large degree.

I've wondered since those experiments if the paper was developer incorporated and if that would have any bearing on it. The paper was Polycontrast II RC. My thinking is that if DI, THAT developer would have a effective "priority" over an external one. No absorption by the gelatin required, it's working as it gets wet.

I don't know if this is true, just a theory.

Good luck on your experiments.

Matthew Gorringe · Apr 4, 2008

After tracking down some phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole I've decided I won't try to rescue this paper. The chemical is going to cost me more than $100 for 25g and I'm not at all convinced that I'll get the contrast back in the paper. It seems that most restrainers require shorter developing times and I usually develop gallerie for 2 - 4 minutes so I can't see that I'll be able to use this paper for it's intended prupose. A replacement batch is already on its way from England at great cost

I've got 8 packets of 12x16" Galerie Grd3; 10 fogged sheets per pack. If anyone would like to experiement with this paper in defender or with restrainers please PM me and I'll send you a pack or two for the price of postage, obviously it will be cheaper for Australians.

I am going to keep 2 packs that I've already opened to try next time I mix up dektol 1:1, I'll add quite a bit of benzotriazole and see what happens with a 1min development time just for the education.

Photo Engineer · Apr 4, 2008

Mattg said:
After tracking down some phenyl-mercapto-tetrazole I've decided I won't try to rescue this paper. The chemical is going to cost me more than $100 for 25g and I'm not at all convinced that I'll get the contrast back in the paper. It seems that most restrainers require shorter developing times and I usually develop gallerie for 2 - 4 minutes so I can't see that I'll be able to use this paper for it's intended prupose. A replacement batch is already on its way from England at great cost

I've got 8 packets of 12x16" Galerie Grd3; 10 fogged sheets per pack. If anyone would like to experiement with this paper in defender or with restrainers please PM me and I'll send you a pack or two for the price of postage, obviously it will be cheaper for Australians.

I am going to keep 2 packs that I've already opened to try next time I mix up dektol 1:1, I'll add quite a bit of benzotriazole and see what happens with a 1min development time just for the education.

PMT is available through the Photographers Formulary AFAIK.

PE

Matthew Gorringe · Apr 5, 2008

Thanks Ron,
I can't find it on their website by any of its many names but will email them and see what they can dig up.

The suppliers here in Australia are only able to get it from one source in Germany and explain its expense by the grade of the product they source.

Matt.

Fogged paper; how much benzotriazole?

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