Fogged or what is this?

Need help. Frustated.
I developed about twenty pictures a while ago. Ilford FB Neutral tone, I used a two bath Alkaline fixer. They where washed and they looked fine. Yestreday I soaked them and toned them in Selenium lightly washed them again and toned them in Sepia (the rotten eggs one in winter at night with an open window, brrr..). Then washed them again and put them in Sistan (the Adox version) and stretched them on glass to get them flat. Now they are yellow.
Does anybody have an idea where I should look first to try and solve the problem.
If the paper is fogged is it possible to see the fogging only after it is toned in Sepia, thus the yellow. Where before it actually looked fine. Could it be the Sistan? I know if it does not get wipped off properly it may stain.
I am going to try a few things and see if I an find the solution and will post.

It sounds like the prints were not washed adequately after the first processing.

Sepia toning is showing that the prints were probably not fixed or washed properly.

AndreasT said:

Need help. Frustated.
I developed about twenty pictures a while ago. Ilford FB Neutral tone, I used a two bath Alkaline fixer. They where washed and they looked fine. Yestreday I soaked them and toned them in Selenium lightly washed them again and toned them in Sepia (the rotten eggs one in winter at night with an open window, brrr..). Then washed them again and put them in Sistan (the Adox version) and stretched them on glass to get them flat. Now they are yellow.
Does anybody have an idea where I should look first to try and solve the problem.
If the paper is fogged is it possible to see the fogging only after it is toned in Sepia, thus the yellow. Where before it actually looked fine. Could it be the Sistan? I know if it does not get wipped off properly it may stain.
I am going to try a few things and see if I an find the solution and will post.

Click to expand...

Not washed properly when. After the fixing the Selenium toning or after the Sepia. Or does this mean in general at any stage

Jim Noel said:

It sounds like the prints were not washed adequately after the first processing.

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OK saw this only after reading twice, why does sepia stain after the initial wash when toned and washed again before sepia toning. I would say I always wash properly but of course it is possible I goofed up somewhere.
I doubt it could be up to being badly fixed since I always use two fixing baths.

Yellowing will show with inadequate fixing/washing, not saying you did anything wrong, sounds like you are using a two bath fix, hypo clear and proper wash before you start toning. Other than this sometimes you can pick up tone from dirty trays but only as a scuff.

exhausted fixer maybe?

AndreasT said:

OK saw this only after reading twice, why does sepia stain after the initial wash when toned and washed again before sepia toning. I would say I always wash properly but of course it is possible I goofed up somewhere.
I doubt it could be up to being badly fixed since I always use two fixing baths.

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after the fixing

AndreasT said:

Not washed properly when. After the fixing the Selenium toning or after the Sepia. Or does this mean in general at any stage

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I just finished some tests with the pictures. On some out of the series not yet toned. I put a drop of sepia working solution and 1+9, as well as selenium working solution and 1+9. On the white of the prints in a dry state leaving them there for about 4 to 10 minutes.
Well with the selenium I can not really say anything happened. But the sepia did leave a stain the fresh 1+9 solution a lot.
They have not been washed afterwards(I do not know if this is important for this).
So it seems they were not washed properly.
Damn this.
Is this a reliable test?

Hi Andreas,

I think that from your descriptions, the prints were underfixed. The reason I think this is because when you fix prints, you're removing the unexposed and undeveloped silver halide salts from the paper. When you bleach the prints with toning bleach, the metallic silver that forms the image, is converted into silver halides and any undeveloped silver halide salts remaining in the paper will also rehalogenise. When you put the print into the toner, the toner converts the halide salts into silver sulphide, which forms the toned visible image. So any silver halide salts that didn't get removed by the fixer will become visible as a yellow or sepia stain. hence the stain when you did your test.

Perhaps your fixer was exhausted, not strong enough, or you didn't fix long enough. I don't know. I've never used alkaline fixers so I don't know how effective they are. You could change to a standard acid fixer like HYPAM if your problems persist.

If it was a washing problem, any fixing salts (thiosuphates) remaining after fixing will combine with the toning bleach (potassium ferricyanide) to form Farmer's Reducer which can erode the rehalogenised silver salts. You'll notice the disappearance of fine detail and light, subtle tones. These is ammonium thiosulphate in selenium toner, so always wash well after selenium toning prints, especially if using a fibre-based paper.

You might find the following web page useful: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/archival.html Good luck, I hope you solve your problems.

Cheers,
kevs

Thanks all for the replies. The thing is I use Fixer from Moersch and he told me if it fresh the picture is fixed within 30 sec. at 1+5. Using two baths I fix 1 min in each. I am using sepia direct toner so no bleaching is taking place.
Since there is Ammonium Thiosulfate in Selenium wouldn't that actually fix the print somewhat.
I am going to test my fixer tomorrow to see if there is a problem there. Personally I do believe I stuffed up with the washing somewhere, it has to happen sometime. This is my first and hopefully my last.

I find sepia yellows the paper base as well as turning tonality 'brown' (which is why I don't use it much). You're not just seeing that are you?

AndreasT said:

Thanks all for the replies. The thing is I use Fixer from Moersch and he told me if it fresh the picture is fixed within 30 sec. at 1+5. Using two baths I fix 1 min in each. I am using sepia direct toner so no bleaching is taking place.
Since there is Ammonium Thiosulfate in Selenium wouldn't that actually fix the print somewhat.
I am going to test my fixer tomorrow to see if there is a problem there. Personally I do believe I stuffed up with the washing somewhere, it has to happen sometime. This is my first and hopefully my last.

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying; I've experienced a background yellowing on prints after selenium/sepia toning myself - I blamed the fixer. I can't comment on the Moersch fixer as I've never used it.

You can test your fixer by dropping a small piece of undeveloped black and white film, from the leader of a 35mm cassette for instance, into the fixer and timing how long it takes to clear; then double that time for a minimum fixing time (for film at least).

I'm not sure whether the thiosulfate in selenium toner is strong enough to fix prints, but it can erode fine details if residual toner isn't removed before bleaching (been there... I'm not sure how it might affect direct toning though).

Sepia toning before selenium might help you find out where your problem is occurring, and at least eliminate or confirm the selenium toner as the source of the problem.

Cheers,
kevs

I did a test today checking my fixer exposing paper to light then putting it into the fixer in 5 sec steps, washed, then put it into toner to see the step where no more colour change is to determine half the fixing time. The fixer according to this seems fine.
My consideration is that you can take sodium sulfite after the toning to stop the toning to prevent possible staining in the wash. I have never done this but may do so.

Okay, well I can't think of anything else to suggest, so hopefully someone else can chime in here. There's another thread that touches on this subject that might interest you; it mentions the way Viradon Neu polysulphide toner works. Hopefully it will be useful to you. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Good luck,
kevs

Thanks kevs I have been reading and posting there.

Sistan is a image stabilizer that does not change the colour of the silver image. It is important not to wash the print after the Sistan treatment. It is not necessary to use Sistan after a selenium toning.

Well if Sistan isn't wiped off properly it may leave yellow brown staining. Let some of it dry in a tray and you should get yellow marks as far as I know. I only tone my prints lightly so to make sure they are Archival I use Sistan.

AndreasT said:

Well if Sistan isn't wiped off properly it may leave yellow brown staining. Let some of it dry in a tray and you should get yellow marks as far as I know. I only tone my prints lightly so to make sure they are Archival I use Sistan.

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Not sure if you're aware, but Sistan isn't needed if you're using polysulphide toner; it gives archival benefits regardless of depth of colour change. See http://www.silverprint.co.uk/plus_archive.asp#?SeriesID=11&TextID=6 for an interesting piece from Silverprint.

Cheers,
kevs

They want to sell the toner. No seriously nice read. Yes I know polysulphide is supposed to be archivally better than selen. Still I prefer to use Sistan since I am sure it will not harm (maybe it does, I will tell you in a hundred years) and I use it instead of a wetting agend which I would otherwise use.