Fogged edges on Tri-X?

snikulin · Oct 3, 2015

I got two "Pro" five-packs of Kodak Tri-X 400 120 film at B&H few weeks ago.
I have developed two films from this delivery and they both have fogged edges.
I specifically loaded and unloaded the last film (see the picture) in a dark room.
For what it worth the film has new "white" baking (http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/filmsIndex.jhtml).
With old orange backing films I never seen this fogging and all my "old" Kodak films were clean.

I almost always see this fogging on Ilford HP5+ and Holga 400 and I attributed it to worse (cheaper) tolerances of baking paper.

I don't see edge fogging on Ilford Delta 400, Kodak TX-400 and Fuji Acros 100.

Urmonas · Oct 3, 2015

Given that you see the effect on one type of Ilford fim, but not another, it is not the backing paper. Thoughts on possible other causes are pressure effects in the loading of the film into the spiral or some sort of issue with chemical access / lack of access where the film touches the spiral.

Jim Noel · Oct 3, 2015

Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.

Sirius Glass · Oct 3, 2015

Did you wrap the film tightly after the roll was exposed?
Are your reels completely clean? Scrub your reels and then remove the film from the reels before using PhotoFlo.

bdial · Oct 3, 2015

As long as these areas don't intrude into the image area, there are no worries.
The first one, near the tape, is at the front of the roll, it's possible that the roll got some slack in it during loading. Something to watch out for, perhaps.

flavio81 · Oct 3, 2015

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.

Wow. This is really wisdom words. Thanks for the warning!!

Bob Carnie · Oct 3, 2015

Very interesting Jim - I never would have thought this could be an issue, I am going to scrub my holders just in case..

I do not immerse them in photo flow , but I cannot control who may have used them .

QUOTE=Jim Noel;1953796597]Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.[/QUOTE]

snikulin · Oct 3, 2015

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.

I use Photo Flo but I do scrub the reels in hot water after each use.

snikulin · Oct 3, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Did you wrap the film tightly after the roll was exposed?
Are your reels completely clean? Scrub your reels and then remove the film from the reels before using PhotoFlo.

This roll was unloaded in a dark room. I clean my reel after each use with a dedicated toothbrush.

Sirius Glass · Oct 3, 2015

Both PhotoFlo and LFN will build up in reels. Also reels tend to collect debris in them with or without PhotoFlo or LFN, so scrub out the reels regularly.

In post #4 I stated "remove the film from the reels before using PhotoFlo." That goes for LFN et al.

pentaxuser · Oct 3, 2015

Has to be a light leak doesn't it? It might be the "new" backing paper but I'd be surprised, given the research that certainly the likes of Ilford put into any change.

It has happened to me once and I am sure it was simply that I wound the film onto the spool at the end, then opened the back in daylight and sealed the end with the sticky label when the backing paper was still slightly slack.

This was with a hand-wound film. With my battery operated insert on my P645N which winds very tightly I have never had this happen.

It it were me I'd open the back in total darkness and then either load the film onto a reel or place it into a light-tight spoolholder then unload it from that in the dark

If the dark streaks on the edges do not re-appear over say several films then the conclusion is clear.

pentaxuser

railwayman3 · Oct 3, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
I've always had that on the edges of film, on and off. Never paid it any attention. I just figured it to be some kind of light leakage or something from where they exposed the numbers and words on the film edges at the factory. Doesn't hurt anything.

If we're talking about the slight intrusion of light between the edge of the film/backing paper and the spool, I have had exactly the same thing on-and-off over the whole time I've used 120. I've thought it was just a querk of roll film, and just a reminder to make sure that the film is lined-up in the camera, kept tightly spooled, and not handled in bright light. Much the same as the occasional slight fogging on the first frame of a 35mm film, not an issue.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 3, 2015

Paper backing is not a perfect solution for 120 film. If the take up spool is not properly aligned in the camera it can wobble then there may be some damage to the paper edges. Another problem can be from the camera film tensioning not rolling the film tightly on the take up spool. These can permit light to leak into the roll. Some cameras are worse than others. Always remove the film in low light and immediately wrap in foil or use a 120 film can. Next time save the backing paper and inspect for damage.

snikulin · Oct 3, 2015

APUGuser19 said:
I've always had that on the edges of film, on and off. Never paid it any attention. I just figured it to be some kind of light leakage or something from where they exposed the numbers and words on the film edges at the factory. Doesn't hurt anything.

Yes, I agree it does not hurt anything. But the film looks less nice aesthetically.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 3, 2015

No one is going to see your negatives or contact prints. All they should ever see are final prints. If the fogging does not extend into the image area of negatives then there really is no problem. However what IS of concern is why this is happening. If it is due to the camera then it is possible for it to get worse.

Xmas · Oct 3, 2015

Confirmed if you know how to use 120 and fogging gets into frame it is time to ask a service guy to fix or discard camera.

Even a Lubitel should be ok.

But you need to be careful 120 was not designed for fast film.

Lots of people took the box camera back to chemist to get the old out and new in! He retired to inner sanctum to do the magic... Returning with old film in D&P processing bag...

Nostalgia attacks are bad.

cmacd123 · Oct 4, 2015

unless you unload camera in dark, and place the film immediately in the tank, their will be a slight chance for some light to sneak in between the spool and the backing. if the backing paper is not 100% centred on the take up spool when loading the camera there may be more fog on one edge.

The light seals on the camera may also be at Fault.

the video that was posted after the last Ilford tour showed that there equipment actually works in the light, if Kodak's is simalar their is a possibility that the film may have such minor edge fog before it leaves the factory. as long as the fog does not intrude into the image, it is proably not an issue.

Roger Pellegrini · Feb 5, 2017

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.

flavio81 said:
Wow. This is really wisdom words. Thanks for the warning!!

cmacd123 said:
unless you unload camera in dark, and place the film immediately in the tank, their will be a slight chance for some light to sneak in between the spool and the backing. if the backing paper is not 100% centred on the take up spool when loading the camera there may be more fog on one edge.

The light seals on the camera may also be at Fault.

the video that was posted after the last Ilford tour showed that there equipment actually works in the light, if Kodak's is simalar their is a possibility that the film may have such minor edge fog before it leaves the factory. as long as the fog does not intrude into the image, it is proably not an issue.

snikulin said:
I use Photo Flo but I do scrub the reels in hot water after each use.

Someone please tell me what LFN is. I have the same problem. Random dark streaks on the outer edges of the film. It happens in all developers and on all films. Alway just on the outer edge of the film beyond the sprocket holes

John Wiegerink · Feb 5, 2017

Roger Pellegrini said:
Someone please tell me what LFN is. I have the same problem. Random dark streaks on the outer edges of the film. It happens in all developers and on all films. Alway just on the outer edge of the film beyond the sprocket holes

LFN is an Edwal wetting agent. You can get it from places like Freestyle.

macfred · Feb 6, 2017

I had the same problem from time to time - now I remove my film from the reels and bath it in a shallow platter (with Photo Flow).

kb244 · Feb 6, 2017

Jim Noel said:
Do you use Photo FLo? Do you put your reels in the Photo Flo?
If so that is your answer. PF has a tendency to build up on reels whether plastic or steel. Once there it acts as a catalyst causing over-development along the edges.
Solution - scrub the reels with hot water. Stop using Photo Flo and switch to LFN- OR -Always remove the film from the reel before immersing in Photo FLo.
We hada major problem with this at the college before we scrubbed the reels and switched to LFN.

That happens even after the fixer has removed the remaining silver halides?

I guess if it crops up at school, I'll be sure to mention that possibility (they use the sprint chemistry there).

Neal · Feb 6, 2017

I always use Photo-Flo and always just put it in the tank (even in my Jobo tanks) and have never had it cause a problem.

Neal Wydra

Helinophoto · Feb 6, 2017

I get the same thing sometimes, especially with Foma 100, its leaks from loading and unloading the film. Try to test the same film, but loading and unloading the camera in the dark.

I bet there is a difference, I truest and my Roma films were suddenly just fine.

I use photoflo with all my films and only see this issue with some films, so it's not the photoflo.

Fogged edges on Tri-X?

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