Foaming in film development

MattKing · Jan 18, 2015

Films often have small amounts of surfactant incorporated in their emulsions.

It may be that the foam one sees is the result of a combination of the in-film surfactant, the developer one uses, the water conditions, and any residue that might be on the reels.

If one changes any of those factors, it might change the result.

That being said, I'm not sure that the foam matters.

j_landecker · Jan 19, 2015

I also have foam issues with Ilford films. I develop with Pyrocat HD (glycol) and tap water, and never use any wetting agent in the tank. I ended up adjusting my agitation to be more gentle, as I felt that the large amount of foam was restricting developer flow. I would take the lid off the tank (Paterson) and the foam would rise and spill over the edges of the tank...

Pat Erson · Jan 19, 2015

RattyMouse said:
Nope, it can't be my water for several reasons.

Around 2012-13 I've had lots of foam (with TRi-X films btw).
The minute I used distilled water for making my D-76 voila no foam...

PS : hey Ratty this is not a personal attack but you seem to have lots of problems with your photo activity. There's not a week without you starting a thread about this or that, or this or that.
So I think your foam problem comes from you not from Ilford.
A case of "bad worker blaming his tools" so to speak.

Chris Livsey · Jan 19, 2015

Always happy to add to the confusion!
Ilford films in home made Pyrocat HD (non glycol) no foam.
I have had a touch when I was less than thorough in rinsing the spirals once but not a beer effect, Ilford wetting agent as standard.
I have used a wide range of films and developers without this issue, our water is only a touch hard forget the figure and I only used purified water to make up stock for sensitive developers, Pyrocat HD being one of them.

RattyMouse · Jan 19, 2015

Pat Erson said:
Around 2012-13 I've had lots of foam (with TRi-X films btw).
The minute I used distilled water for making my D-76 voila no foam...

PS : hey Ratty this is not a personal attack but you seem to have lots of problems with your photo activity. There's not a week without you starting a thread about this or that, or this or that.
So I think your foam problem comes from you not from Ilford.
A case of "bad worker blaming his tools" so to speak.

Not a week where I dont start a thread about a problem? Really? That's delusional. On your part.

Do you not read in this thread where *I* state that *I* have some problem solving to do? Did you miss that or did you not understand the meaning? Let me help you. What this means is that I accept that others do not get foam when they process Ilford's Delta 3200 and 400 films. If I accept this to be true, then the source of my foam must come from somewhere else. I do not know what this source is so problem solving is required.

I stated clearly that I never get any foam when processing Fuji film or Kodak film. Same process, different films. I've processed hundreds of rolls of film since I started doing my own work, processing 60 rolls since last December alone. I STILL have not finished processing all the film I shot from my last trip to Japan, down to the final 8 rolls, all Kodak TMAX 400. I expect to not get any foam, as usual, but will observe closely again today.

Simon R Galley · Jan 20, 2015

Dear RattyMouse et al,

I took the opportunity to visit technical service this morning....explained the issue...

Raised eyebrows time... our film guru's say: Foaming, firstly no QC's for foaming but then people would probably see it as not a film critical outcome problem.

Are our films 'prone' to foaming : No, any ILFORD film more likely to 'foam' than another...No

Developers : Tech service test each chemical batch and film batch produced, if 'foaming' was noticed it would trigger a QC issue.

Tech service occasionally test a range of 'other' non-ILFORD dev's no other product would seem to be 'more' prone.

What causes foaming : Same as has already been suggested : Chemical residue mostly: over vigorous or violent agitation but Tech service also say pre-soaked films can 'tend' to foam more... but even then not noticeably so, elevated developer temperature can also cause it.

Tech service say, whilst 'unusual' and disconcerting foaming should not inhibit development, or the movement of developer at all providing normal processing and agitation discipline is done, film is in the chemistry not on top of it, except momentarily during agitation or draining down..

I hope that helps.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

RattyMouse · Jan 20, 2015

Hi Simon,

Thanks for your post. The majority of my Ilford film experience is with HP5+ and for the life of me I don't recall that film ever foaming but it has been a few months since I have done a roll. Next most common film is Delta 3200, which I normally have seen foam a lot. Recently I bought a brick of Delta 400, which has produced quite a lot of foam, hence the post that you replied to.

Your reply along with others has lead me to understand that foam should not be common so I will be investigating further. It could be just bad luck that my process has foamed when Ilford film has been in the tanks. I process a lot of Acros film and that has never foamed at all for me, not even once. That is why I noticed it quite easily when processing Delta 3200.

I have about 6 rolls of TMAX 400 waiting to be processed so I'll get more non Ilford Experience. I still have plenty of Delta 400 and 3200 to shoot so I'll keep studying the variation. I'll snap a photo of the foam that I am seeing if one of my kids are around to help while I am developing.

So far I have not seen any ill effects of all this foam, but know that anytime air is dispersed in a fluid, the potential is there for less fluid to be where it needs to be. I'm particularly sensitive to foam, having spent the past 20 years (really) formulating chemical products to be low foaming.

Europan · Jan 20, 2015

You mentioned Paterson. It could be the plastic of either tank or spiral reel or both.

Do not rinse these parts with hot water. Throw your foam detected gear away and start afresh.
Plastics contain plasticizers, binders, dyes, and more that we know not of precisely. Plastics are porous, can have cracks, faint to invisible fissures. Residues in there and or bleeding of chemicals out into the bath. You have changing pH on the plastic, developer alkaline, fixing bath mostly acid. No pleasure for plastics

Do not employ hot water. Heat softens plastics. To be sure, process with stainless steel gear and compare.

Simon R Galley · Jan 20, 2015

Dear Rattymouse,

I await foam feedback

Simon.

Ian Grant · Jan 20, 2015

Europan said:
You mentioned Paterson. It could be the plastic of either tank or spiral reel or both.

Do not rinse these parts with hot water. Throw your foam detected gear away and start afresh.
Plastics contain plasticizers, binders, dyes, and more that we know not of precisely. Plastics are porous, can have cracks, faint to invisible fissures. Residues in there and or bleeding of chemicals out into the bath. You have changing pH on the plastic, developer alkaline, fixing bath mostly acid. No pleasure for plastics

Do not employ hot water. Heat softens plastics. To be sure, process with stainless steel gear and compare.

Bad advice !!!

I've used Paterson tanks for years, Series II and older and these days Series 4 some of my reels are over 40 years old washing with hot water is NOT a problem.

Even stainless steel reels build up residues and need thorough cleaning occasionally.

Ian

R.Gould · Jan 20, 2015

Like Ian I have used Patterson tanks for all of my Photographic life and have never had a problem with them, just wash them in hot water, I have done so and all is fine, and the only time I get foam is when I over agitate my film.s, it will not be down to the plastic tanks/reels, I have over agitated with stainless tanks and got a bit of foaming. These days I wash my films with a hose down the center of the tank, that is the only cleaning my tanks/reels have,
Richard

removedacct1 · Jan 20, 2015

paulbarden said:
Have you tried doing a water pre-soak before introducing the developer?

RattyMouse: I don't see whether or not you answered this question. Do you pre-soak your films with plain water? If there's something in the film that is interacting with your developer (or whatever) to cause significant foam, then you'd likely be removing it in the pre-soak. What is your water quality like? Are you using mineral-free* water to make your developer? Its unclear to me whether you are putting PhotoFlo in your developer or not - something you said a few days ago suggests this MIGHT be what you are doing. I'd leave that out if I were you - no need to include a wetting agent, especially if you do a pre-soak. PhotoFlo is a surfactant and totally capable of generating significant foam. (but then I know you know that)

*distilled water, or reverse osmosis water.

RattyMouse · Jan 20, 2015

paulbarden said:
RattyMouse: I don't see whether or not you answered this question. Do you pre-soak your films with plain water? If there's something in the film that is interacting with your developer (or whatever) to cause significant foam, then you'd likely be removing it in the pre-soak. What is your water quality like? Are you using mineral-free* water to make your developer? Its unclear to me whether you are putting PhotoFlo in your developer or not - something you said a few days ago suggests this MIGHT be what you are doing. I'd leave that out if I were you - no need to include a wetting agent, especially if you do a pre-soak. PhotoFlo is a surfactant and totally capable of generating significant foam. (but then I know you know that)

*distilled water, or reverse osmosis water.

I do not presoak my film. Never have, never will.

Shanghai tap water is 10 grain.

I use Photoflo at the recommended or slightly less concentrated rate.

All of my process variables to me are in control. Fuji, Kodak, and HP5+ films don't foam, Ilford Delta 3200 and 400 do.

When I have time, I have two rolls of TMAX 400 to process and my last roll of Delta 3200. I'll photograph the tank once the development stage is over and show those in this thread what I'm seeing.

Hopefully I can do that soon.

Kevin Caulfield · Jan 21, 2015

paulbarden said:
RattyMouse: I don't see whether or not you answered this question. Do you pre-soak your films with plain water? If there's something in the film that is interacting with your developer (or whatever) to cause significant foam, then you'd likely be removing it in the pre-soak. What is your water quality like? Are you using mineral-free* water to make your developer? Its unclear to me whether you are putting PhotoFlo in your developer or not - something you said a few days ago suggests this MIGHT be what you are doing. I'd leave that out if I were you - no need to include a wetting agent, especially if you do a pre-soak. PhotoFlo is a surfactant and totally capable of generating significant foam. (but then I know you know that)

*distilled water, or reverse osmosis water.

X t you can T's:-? Z the ;-) z m

Roger Cole · Jan 21, 2015

Kevin Caulfield said:
X t you can T's:-? Z the ;-) z m

Uh...whiskey, tango, foxtrot??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

Kevin Caulfield · Jan 21, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Uh...whiskey, tango, foxtrot??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

Haha. Wow, I managed to make that post with my phone sitting in my pocket. Sorry about that.

RattyMouse · Jan 21, 2015

Kevin Caulfield said:
Haha. Wow, I managed to make that post with my phone sitting in my pocket. Sorry about that.

That's hilarious!

RattyMouse · Jan 21, 2015

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Rattymouse,

I await foam feedback

Simon.

Was planning on a developing session today after work. I loaded my last roll of Delta 3200 into my tank and then started to mix up a fresh batch of fixer. Turns out, I didn't have any so all progress on this area will be on hold until I can get a new bottle of Ilford Rapid Fixer. That's Sunday at the earliest. I will update this thread as I look for the solution.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 21, 2015

May I suggest that you don't have an issue since your roll films turn out as expected?

You could also try washing your reels and tank in hot water to try to clean off any residue that will foam, just to eliminate that as a variable in your analysis. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, try a new tank and new reels if they are available to you.

removedacct1 · Jan 21, 2015

I asked you specifically if you use PhotoFlo in your developer, to which you replied:

RattyMouse said:
I do not presoak my film. Never have, never will.

I use Photoflo at the recommended or slightly less concentrated rate.

If this is correct information, I would think your answer is right there.

Rick A · Jan 21, 2015

That doesn't answer if he used it in the developer, only that he uses it. We assume he means as final rinse.

removedacct1 · Jan 21, 2015

Rick A said:
That doesn't answer if he used it in the developer, only that he uses it. We assume he means as final rinse.

Considering that I asked him specifically if he used it in the developer, and that was the answer he gave.....I think its worth my asking for clarification. Don't you?

Rick A · Jan 21, 2015

I have re-read both your post and ratty's reply, he does not specifically address in the developer, only that he uses it. I do think his foaming issue is developer induced, but from Photo-flo residue combined with a developer that may readily foam.

RattyMouse · Jan 21, 2015

My mistake folks. I didn't read the question clearly. I never use Photoflo in developer, only in the final rinse.

RattyMouse · Jan 21, 2015

Thomas Bertilsson said:
May I suggest that you don't have an issue since your roll films turn out as expected?

You could also try washing your reels and tank in hot water to try to clean off any residue that will foam, just to eliminate that as a variable in your analysis. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, try a new tank and new reels if they are available to you.

I've never stated that this foam is causing a problem. Not yet at least and that is part of my concern. As I already stated earlier in the thread, I've had to deal with the problems of foam in my chemical career for 20 years. The amount of foam that I'm getting when developing Delta 3200 is massive. When the tank lid comes off the foam gushes out and overflows. At the very least it's a mess to clean up and at the same time that's a LOT of air in my tank. All that air can and does displace developer and later stop and fixer (which gets contaminated and foams severely later in the process). I'd like to get the bottom of this if possible.

New tanks and reels would be nice, but not easy to buy in China.

My reels get washed *instantly* after the film is hung to dry. 5 mins rinse under 60 C water. Having worked with surfactants all my professional life, I'm pretty good at cleaning equipment and ensuring that none remain any equipment I use.

If my tanks and reels were the source of this foam problem, Acros rolls should foam like any other film and that is *never* the case. I process more Acros than all the other films combined and never see foam like I see with Delta 3200 and 400. Never.

Foaming in film development

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