Foaming in film development

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

I can't help but notice that Ilford's films, at least Delta 3200 and Delta 400 make a LOT of foam, starting with the developer and carrying forward all the way into my fixer solution. I am not a heavy agitator when doing my inversions, but when developing these two films, by the end of the developing period, there is an INTENSE amount of foam in the solution. Upon popping open my Paterson tank, foam overflows out the top and down the side, like a good beer. Huge amounts of foam. I dump the developer and add stop bath and once that's done, it comes out again with heavy foam. Finally, after processing several rolls, my fixer now is tremendously foamy. Ilford films use a totally different set of surfactants compared to Fujifilm and Kodak.

I can't help but think that foam in developers and fixers is a bad thing, yet I can't see any sign of problems. The amount of foam is just amazing. I have the lid off my tank after the final set of inversions and for the last minute can watch my developer very slowly drain down the funnel, taking the whole minute as the foam breaks so slowly. I get heavy foam regardless of whether or not I use DD-X or HC-110.

Is this foam well known to everyone here? I don't think I've seen much talk about it. I can't believe that I'm the only one with this issue. As I said, most would think that I invert much too softly but that is still enough to generate heavy heavy foam.

Thanks,

grommi · Jan 18, 2015

I can't figure that it is problem with the Deltas. As you describe the phenomenon, there must be something else seriously wrong. Sorry, no clue, but it's definately not the film.

Rick A · Jan 18, 2015

I never noticed any foam when developing Ilford films. Maybe it's residue from Photo-flo causing it.

Juergen · Jan 18, 2015

Assuming you use regular tap water for the process, could it be in your water? Some detergent of some kind they put in it?
Have you ever tried just shaking some of it in your tank to see what happens?
I really doubt it has anything to do with the film, developer, stop or fix.
I guess all of us get a tiny bit of foam but certainly not the quantities you get when pouring beer really fast.

wildbill · Jan 18, 2015

NEVER HAD FOAM with any ilford film.

Ian Grant · Jan 18, 2015

Film and paper emulsions can contain surfactants to help with coating, and also aids more even development. I have seen this foaming with Forte Polywarmtone after processing a few sheets in the developer.

I've processed a lot of Delat 100 & 400 films and never had this issue, if fact I have to add a couple of drops of wetting agent to my developer tp prevent air-bells. I mix by own developers from scratch and the local water is very hard, commercial developers usually contain very small quantities of surfactants as well.

It may be a combination of factors, very soft water, a build up of wetting agent on the spirals. It's very important to clean your spirals well every few months they get a build up of gelatin on them this harbors residual wetting agent. I wash mine in reasonably hot biological washing powder, and scrub them with an old toothbrush. I also wash them with warm water after every use.

Ian

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

Nope, it can't be my water for several reasons.

First, I develop a LOT of Acros as well as Neopan 400. Never any foam. The same with TMAX 400. I've run about 15 rolls through my process since returning from Japan last month and not a drop of foam.

Second, I test for foam when cleaning my tanks. I rinse with hot water and agitate in my tank. If there's foam, I continue to rinse. I stop with the rinsing when I can see bubbles collapse instantly.

I can't recall if HP5+ has foam. That must mean no, because I've run a lot of this film through my process.

But Delta 3200 and 400? Wow, amazing foam. Copious amount of foam. Very very stable foam.

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Film and paper emulsions can contain surfactants to help with coating, and also aids more even development. I have seen this foaming with Forte Polywarmtone after processing a few sheets in the developer.

I've processed a lot of Delat 100 & 400 films and never had this issue, if fact I have to add a couple of drops of wetting agent to my developer tp prevent air-bells. I mix by own developers from scratch and the local water is very hard, commercial developers usually contain very small quantities of surfactants as well.

It may be a combination of factors, very soft water, a build up of wetting agent on the spirals. It's very important to clean your spirals well every few months they get a build up of gelatin on them this harbors residual wetting agent. I wash mine in reasonably hot biological washing powder, and scrub them with an old toothbrush. I also wash them with warm water after every use.

Ian

Shanghai tap water is about 10 grain, so not soft at all. Further, as I already documented I get no foam with non Ilford films. Never. I clean my spirals in hot water, immediately, like within 20 seconds after pulling off and hanging the film, in hot water for a good 5 minutes.

My 1 liter bottle of stop batch is so foamy as to be almost unusable after developing just 2 rolls of Delta 3200.

My day job the past 20 years has been (and continues to be) as a chemist so I know very well how to clean laboratory gear. My gear gets rigorously cleaned after use.

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

One other thing...I certainly have a feel for when the foam develops. Once I pour in my developer into the tank and start agitation, everything sounds normal. The fluid in the tank splashes inside as one normally expects. About half way through the development cycle, the sound of the splashing is much much more muted. This is because there is so much foam inside the tank, that almost all the empty space is filled up, making the agitation much less effective. One can hear a dramatic reduction in sound. I know that once I have reached that point, I'm in for a bubble bath once the top is removed. At this point, large amounts of foam will come pouring out of the tank once head space is created by removing the top.

It takes a good 5 minutes or so of processing to get to this point. Were the fluid this foamy at first, the foam would be there right away.

My agitation scheme is 100% the first minute and then 10 seconds every minute after, for the length of developing.

Alex Muir · Jan 18, 2015

I used to get a lot of foam like you describe. I stopped using Kodak wetting agent, and moved on to Ilford. I don't get it as much now. I'm not sure if it was that, or a certain brand of film, developer or combination. I've had it spill out at the end of development, but adding the stop usually killed it, with a return during fixing. It never seemed to have any adverse effect, it just didn't look right. I use the Paterson universal tanks, and tend to use 500ml for 35mm films. If you only use 300ml, there is a lot of air space for the foam to develop.
Alex.

Jim Noel · Jan 18, 2015

Alex Muir said:
I used to get a lot of foam like you describe. I stopped using Kodak wetting agent, and moved on to Ilford. I don't get it as much now. I'm not sure if it was that, or a certain brand of film, developer or combination. I've had it spill out at the end of development, but adding the stop usually killed it, with a return during fixing. It never seemed to have any adverse effect, it just didn't look right. I use the Paterson universal tanks, and tend to use 500ml for 35mm films. If you only use 300ml, there is a lot of air space for the foam to develop.
Alex.

I fully agree with your answer. Kodak's Photo Flo builds up on reels whether plastic or stainless steel and acts as a catalyst among other problems. Rinsing in hot water does not remove it. Only a hard scrubbing with a brush will do so. When I began teaching at the local college it was a big problem until we hand scrubbed each reel and switched to a different surfactant. The foaming and catalytic action went away immediately.

removedacct1 · Jan 18, 2015

Have you tried doing a water pre-soak before introducing the developer?

railwayman3 · Jan 18, 2015

I've never had any foaming issues with any Ilford film. Our tap water is not very soft, but not excessively hard; I used to add a drop of wetting agent to developers, but haven't bothered in recent years, as it didn't seem to make any difference. I usually feel that film and commercial developers have surfectant built in, as though the solutions have a "smoothness" with just the occasional few large bubbles, but nothing more.

I do add a drop of Photo-flo-type-stuff to the final rinse (from a big and ancient bottle of the Tetenal version which I was given 20+ years ago, and will probably last me out!).

pentaxuser · Jan 18, 2015

Rattymouse hasn't said if he uses wetting agent in the tank. If he does then unless everyone so far has different circumstances it look like the best explanation.

I never noticed that much foam with any of the Deltas. You will get some foaming round the funnel in a Jobo tank and that applies with fairly vigorous inversions such as the Kodak routine when using Xtol which is my developer but I have never seen this repeat itself once the fixer is added after I have swilled with water instead of stop which rids the tank of developer

Makes me suspect that some residual wetting agent may be in the tank

pentaxuser

grahamp · Jan 18, 2015

My tanks and spirals never touch wetting agent. I have a jug I keep especially for clean water and wetting agent, and dump he film into that then hang straight from there. I use about one drop of wetting agent to a litre of water.

I have been using Ilford films almost exclusively for the past few years, and develop using a Jobo. The developer is normally Thornton's two-bathe made up with distilled water. I do see some foaming at one or other steps, but not enough to notice. Where it can show up is in the rinses done on the Jobo after the process cycle. That is done with local tap water, which I consider medium to soft.

Inversion is bound to cause more foaming if the conditions are right than using a rotary system. It does not cause me any problems.

fotch · Jan 18, 2015

I never put the film/reel into the wetting agent, rather, remove the film and see-saw the film in a bowl of wetting agent by hand for a minute.

ajmiller · Jan 18, 2015

I used to have foam with HP5+ and my experience is exactly as yours, down to even at what point it started foaming. I was using hc110 as developer. It never caused any great issues with the negatives but at the end of last year I finished my hc110 and started using ID11. No more problems with foaming. Perhaps it may be something in liquid developers? I never had my reels near wetting agent btw!

pentaxuser · Jan 18, 2015

ajmiller said:
It never caused any great issues with the negatives but at the end of last year I finished my hc110 and started using ID11. No more problems with foaming. Perhaps it may be something in liquid developers? I never had my reels near wetting agent btw!

I have never noticed this with DDX, Xtol or come to think of it Rodinal or Ilford Ilfosol. it would seem that the odds favour it being something more than just liquid developers as a class. It might depend on how we are defining "foaming," I suppose. What is foaming to yourself and rattymouse may just be a few bubbles to me. Difficult to say unless we are all looking at the same offending foam and independently judge whether it constitutes foam

pentaxuser

Roger Cole · Jan 18, 2015

Rick A said:
I never noticed any foam when developing Ilford films. Maybe it's residue from Photo-flo causing it.

Me either. No differences in foaming with any films I've used - Ilford, Kodak, Fuji or Foma.

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Rattymouse hasn't said if he uses wetting agent in the tank. If he does then unless everyone so far has different circumstances it look like the best explanation.

I never noticed that much foam with any of the Deltas. You will get some foaming round the funnel in a Jobo tank and that applies with fairly vigorous inversions such as the Kodak routine when using Xtol which is my developer but I have never seen this repeat itself once the fixer is added after I have swilled with water instead of stop which rids the tank of developer

Makes me suspect that some residual wetting agent may be in the tank

pentaxuser

I do use Photoflo. But why don't my Acros or Kodak films foam? Why only Ilford? The process is the same for all of them. Most confusing.

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

pentaxuser said:
I have never noticed this with DDX, Xtol or come to think of it Rodinal or Ilford Ilfosol. it would seem that the odds favour it being something more than just liquid developers as a class. It might depend on how we are defining "foaming," I suppose. What is foaming to yourself and rattymouse may just be a few bubbles to me. Difficult to say unless we are all looking at the same offending foam and independently judge whether it constitutes foam

pentaxuser

Fill your tank up with a fresh beer, cap it and then shake it up. That's the foam you'd see in my tank, but only if I were developing Delta 3200 or 400, not Kodak TMAX.

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

I'm going to put my reels into the tank with just water, and "process" nothing at all. If the reels are the source of foam, I should see something as I just shake them in water. I'll do that tonight after work.

Good idea?

Sirius Glass · Jan 18, 2015

Rick A said:
I never noticed any foam when developing Ilford films. Maybe it's residue from Photo-flo causing it.

Neither have I.

pentaxuser · Jan 18, 2015

RattyMouse said:
I'm going to put my reels into the tank with just water, and "process" nothing at all. If the reels are the source of foam, I should see something as I just shake them in water. I'll do that tonight after work.

Good idea?

Sounds good to me. Based on your description of foam I'd say without hesitation that I'd describe that as foam as well. Something is wrong but if it was Ilford films and or liquid developers then those stating that they have no foam problem would be the exception instead of the rule.

I hope you get to the bottom of it

pentaxuser

RattyMouse · Jan 18, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Sounds good to me. Based on your description of foam I'd say without hesitation that I'd describe that as foam as well. Something is wrong but if it was Ilford films and or liquid developers then those stating that they have no foam problem would be the exception instead of the rule.

I hope you get to the bottom of it

pentaxuser

The fact that I'm virtually alone in this situation means that I have some detective work to do. I'm sure the answer can be found, it's just going to take some effort.

Foaming in film development

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