Foaming Heck! Lots of Foam when processing 2 120 rolls at once

hoffy · May 6, 2017

Only just recently I have started processing 2 rolls of 120 at once (Patterson tank with 1Litre of fluid, Ilford films, D76, 4 agitations in a ten second period, every minute). I have noticed that after the dev step I am getting lots of foam. Basically when I pull the lid off, there is foam bubbling up the centre and the sides of the tank. I had never really noticed it when processing 1 roll at a time (certainly not this bad).

Should I be concerned? Is there anything to worry about? What might be causing it?

Cheers

LarsAC · May 6, 2017

Nothing to worry about from a chemical side. But the foam could cause uneven development at the edge of the upper roll if there is not enough liquid. I use somewhat more liquid than needed so that the film rolls are well immersed, also when foam builds up.

I typically have foam when developing FP4+ in Pyrocat.

Lars

hoffy · May 6, 2017

Liquid SHOULD be OK, as I am putting in the specified amount for the tank, which covers the reels sufficiently.

Ian Grant · May 6, 2017

Make sure you wash the tank and reels well with hot water after use, film and paper emulsions contain surfactants, these build up. Every time you process film traces of emulsion get left on the reels and this attracts wetting agent as well. I bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) my reels every few months if they've had a lot of use this is the best way to remove gelatin build up.

Ian

paul ron · May 6, 2017

after your inversions, be sure to do a couple good raps on the counter to release the bubbles that may be trapped between the film on the reels?

thuggins · May 6, 2017

There is always some foam in the cap area of the tank, and I use a one pint (single 120 roll) tank. As long as the liquid covers the top of the film, this doesn't cause a problem.

bvy · May 6, 2017

I have this problem with XTOL 1+1 using continuous agitation -- but only if I'm using the maximum amount of developer. I have a small stainless tank that holds about 400ml of developer. If I use near that much developer, I get foam. 200ml of developer, no foam. It's not a problem for me since the tank is constantly in motion. It was a problem for me when I was using traditional hand methods (invert and rest) and the level of the developer wasn't at least an inch from the top reel.

Pioneer · May 6, 2017

Must be unique to FP4+. No foam here but I rarely use FP4 in any format. Do use a separate container for wetting agent and do bleach clean my reels occasionally.

Use a lot of Jobo equipment, some Arista Premium and one Paterson, all plastic.

Laurent · May 6, 2017

I had the same issue with HP5+, Pan-F (I only use Ilford films, so I'm not blaming Ilford).
The most convincing information I found about this is Jobo telling people to avoid dipping the reels in wetting agent as it may "enter" the reels' plastic and be released later.

In my case it happens the worst during developing, no matter what IU do. I had some films ruined as one can see the foam's "finger print" on all even areas.

My cure is to use more developer than needed (HC110 in dil. H is cheap enough so I'm not event thinking about it) in a tank bigger than needed (basically 2 x developer in 2 x bigger tank)

Patrick Robert James · May 6, 2017

You could give Edwal LFN a try. And clean your reels! People don't clean their reels often enough. Some people say they never clean them, but I think that is a mistake.

Count me among those that never sees any foaming.

LarsAC · May 6, 2017

How do you clean them ? Reels get washed along with the film during final wash. Wetting agent never touches my reels.

Lars

BetterSense · May 6, 2017

Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is not a good thing to use on stainless steel as it promotes rust. If used, it should be followed up with nitric acid pickling to reverse the effects of the bleach on the passivation of the steel.

I would suggest avoiding bleach and using lye or sodium percarbonate (oxi-clean) instead, if a base is needed.

Patrick Robert James · May 6, 2017

For my JOBO plastic reels I use bleach. Works great and even gets rid of some of the Pyro stain.

mshchem · May 6, 2017

No foaming here Kodak TMY and XTOL for last 20 years, Paterson, stainless and Jobo. I use photoflo but I do it on the reel for 30 seconds, hang the film then immediately wash the reels in very hot water and pat dry. I throw away plastic reels if they get discolored, Hewes reels last forever. Scrub them good with plain dish washing soap and hot water. DO NOT as mentioned by BetterSense use chlorine bleach or chlorinated cleaners on stainless. Nikor and Kodak always recommended BonAmi brand (US) totally natural mineral based (feldspar) powder to clean stainless tanks. Dilute nitric acid to re-passivate the stainless. I use a little citric acid now and then to clean hard water scale off my Arkay SS sink.
Mike

hoffy · May 7, 2017

Ian Grant said:
Make sure you wash the tank and reels well with hot water after use, film and paper emulsions contain surfactants, these build up. Every time you process film traces of emulsion get left on the reels and this attracts wetting agent as well. I bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) my reels every few months if they've had a lot of use this is the best way to remove gelatin build up.

Ian

The reels only ever get a hot water rinse after I am done. I suspect that a good clean is what I need to do.

paul ron said:
after your inversions, be sure to do a couple good raps on the counter to release the bubbles that may be trapped between the film on the reels?

Most certainly. A couple of taps on the palm of the hand, followed by three heft bench thumps - I've never had an issue with air bells.

BetterSense said:
Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is not a good thing to use on stainless steel as it promotes rust. If used, it should be followed up with nitric acid pickling to reverse the effects of the bleach on the passivation of the steel.

I would suggest avoiding bleach and using lye or sodium percarbonate (oxi-clean) instead, if a base is needed.

Would those solutions cause an issue with plastic reels?

deembee · May 7, 2017

I've had major issues with foam specifically with HP5 120. I also used D76 but I think it's more related to the film. I tried to resolve many different ways but prewashing ultimately did the trick. My routine is agitate first minute and then 10 seconds every minute for 4 aditional minutes. After a total of 5 minutes, dump water and refill then dump immediately. Good luck.

Contaxzeiss · May 14, 2017

Ilford in their datasheets, (HP5+ etc.) recommend NOT to prewash as this can lead to uneven development. Also ilford states that the films have antihalation backing that clears itself during development, which could be the source of the foam.

klownshed · May 14, 2017

This has been discussed before and the solution seems to be to pre-wash.

Ilford do say not to. However, I use a Jobo and it's essential (IME) to prewash for consistent results (as per Jobo's instructions). I've yet to encounter any problems with uneven development when prewashing.

When you get foaming, it can ruin your roll and a prewash can prevent this.

If you are experiencing foaming issues, a pre wash is worth trying.

Sirius Glass · May 14, 2017

Ian Grant said:
Make sure you wash the tank and reels well with hot water after use, film and paper emulsions contain surfactants, these build up. Every time you process film traces of emulsion get left on the reels and this attracts wetting agent as well. I bleach (Sodium Hypochlorite) my reels every few months if they've had a lot of use this is the best way to remove gelatin build up.

Ian

I have never had a foaming problem, but a thorough cleaning with a toothbrush is good for steel or plastic reels and tanks. I have laundry bleach or Bar Tender's Friend to remove stains.

Vaughn · May 14, 2017

I have never washed my reels -- except while washing the film. Never had a problem -- of course, now that someone has mentioned it, I'll start having problems!

hoffy · May 20, 2017

This morning I just processed 2 rolls of Foma (I have not cleaned my reels yet) - guess what! No Foam. What did I do different for the Foma? As per always, I pre-rinsed this film, so maybe there is something to be said about pre-washing.

Now, my own personal dilemma is do I start pre-washing Ilford? I am happy with the results I get and can get a bit OCD about changing any (& I mean ANY) steps in a process that I am happy with.

Kevin Caulfield · May 20, 2017

So the Foma is not a Foamer?

hoffy · May 21, 2017

The dad joke is strong in this one!

tokam · May 22, 2017

Hi Hoffy, are you using Adelaide tap water for your processing. I've heard that this tap water is an 'acquired' taste. For those that don't know, it frequently runs a light brown like weak tea. Lord knows how it is processed to remove sediments etc.

Do you have any friends on tank water? After filtering this should be fairly neutral. May improve your foaming problem.

With photoflo in final rinse, I use a couple of drops off of my thermometer in about 500 ml in a Patterson tank. I normally see a scattering of bubbles in the tank as I lift and dunk the film reel but they disappear very quickly. I just give my reels and tank a brief hot rinse after each session.

hoffy · May 22, 2017

Yes, you are right in saying that Adelaide water is average (not Quite as bad as your description, but not as good as Melbourne water). It has a habit of killing XTOL when you least expect it. But, alas, I mix my developer with bottled spring water (generally the cheapest I can find in the super market at the time). I also filter all other water that is used during the process.

Foaming Heck! Lots of Foam when processing 2 120 rolls at once

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency