Flexicolor Chemical Storage

MingMingPhoto · Jan 1, 2021

Hi all,

I purchased some Flexicolor chemicals:

LORR Dec Starter 1.2 L
LORR LU Dev Replenisher (A,B,C) 5L
RA Bleach NR 5L
RA Fixer 10L

Is it best for me to mix all chemicals one time and sore them in their own containers
Is it best to mix as needed and leave remaining unmixed chemical in original containers
Is is best to do something else altogether

Please let me know!

RPC · Jan 1, 2021

I use Kodak chemistry, both C-41 and RA-4, and have found that the longest storage life is achieved by mixing them all at once and storing them properly--in glass jars filled to the top and sealed tightly. I use canning jars, they can be purchased in grocery stores and home centers, are fairly inexpensive, have tightly sealing lids, and come in a variety of sizes. Storing them in this manner, I have had solutions last more than five years with excellent results. In fact, the developer solutions hardly change color when filled to the top. YMMV

The only exception to this is RA-4 bleach-fix, which after mixing should not be stored more than a month or two for best results.

MingMingPhoto · Jan 1, 2021

RPC said:
I use Kodak chemistry, both C-41 and RA-4, and have found that the longest storage life is achieved by mixing them all at once and storing them properly--in glass jars filled to the top and sealed tightly. I use canning jars, they can be purchased in grocery stores and home centers, are fairly inexpensive, have tightly sealing lids, and come in a variety of sizes. Storing them in this manner, I have had solutions last more than five years with excellent results. In fact, the developer solutions hardly change color when filled to the top. YMMV

The only exception to this is RA-4 bleach-fix, which after mixing should not be stored more than a month or two for best results.

Thank you!
To be through, you're using the exact same chemicals I'm using?

RPC · Jan 1, 2021

Mine is the standard Flexicolor chemistry designed for labs, not the LORR type, but Kodak's literature says the LORR has the same performance characteristics but with lower replenishment rates. However, I use a ferricyanide bleach, not the Kodak bleach.

The RA-4 developer is the Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher and the I use standard Bleach-Fix.

MingMingPhoto · Jan 1, 2021

RPC said:
Mine is the standard Flexicolor chemistry designed for labs, not the LORR type, but Kodak's literature says the LORR has the same performance characteristics but with lower replenishment rates. Howerver, I use a ferricyanide bleach, not the Kodak bleach.

The RA-4 developer is the Kodak RA-RT Developer/Replenisher and the I use standard Bleach-Fix.

This only confuses me, but thank you for trying <3

RPC · Jan 1, 2021

What confuses you?

MingMingPhoto · Jan 1, 2021

Well not confuses, but I feel like if you're not talking about the exact chemicals I'm using I can't trust the info to be true for me too. I'm using a mix of LORR and RA chemicals. And I don't know enough about the propertie of chemicals to know which ones are simply brand name vs, something actually different on a molecular level

RPC · Jan 1, 2021

As I said, the performance characteristic are the same. This would include capacity and storage life. I see no reason why your chemicals would not last as long as mine, if not longer since they have lower replenishment rates.

MingMingPhoto · Jan 1, 2021

I can't help but free skeptical since Idk if you're actually experinced or not :/

Like I'm sure it happens to you all the time, ppl tell you can't or maybe you can do something, then when you go against what they say you find out they were wrong. Or something like that. It happens to me all the time, ppl proclaim to know about things and then they just don't actually know..

I love you for trying but I will never believe you since you don't use my exact chemicals or since you haven't claimed to have some kind of closeness to these chemcials or to the knowledge... like if you said "I worked for Kodak and the engineers told me on 5 seperat occasions that "yattaytattayatte" I'd believe you. But for now I'm just gonna wait for someone to tell me that has already used my chemicals

I wanna know if I should dilute the RA fixer or not

According to z131 (a kodak guide on flexi chemicals) there are a bunch of nuances and rnadom thigns that make them all different so I am skeptical.

don't even try to persued me, it'sa lost cause. I'm too skeptical, I already think you're the fbi now lol

RPC · Jan 1, 2021

The Kodak publication "KODAK FLEXICOLOR CHEMICALS", under the heading "STORING CHEMICAL CONCENTRATES AND SOLUTIONS" has this to say:

"Once you open the original container, the chemicals are exposed to oxygen that will react with the chemicals and gradually cause them to deteriorate. This is especially true of developers. Oxidation occurs to some extent even if you immediately reseal the container. To reduce the effects of oxidation, store solutions in amounts that you can use at one time. For example, if you open a 10-gallon-size container, mix the entire amount, and then store the solution in closed one-gallon containers. Each time you need more chemicals, open a bottle and use the entire amount. The remaining mix stored in separate containers is not exposed to air".

Thus, they advocate using my method.

MattKing · Jan 1, 2021

MingMingPhoto said:
I can't help but free skeptical since Idk if you're actually experinced or not

I've read RPC's posts on these and related issues for 14 years now.
He (I think RPC is a he) is experienced. His advice is good.

dkonigs · Jan 1, 2021

The first time I mixed Kodak's RA-4 Bleach/Fix, I took the approach of incrementally mixing the concentrate a liter at a time. After a few months, the "fixer" concentrate started to settle into a sediment at the bottom of its container and I had to buy fresh.

When I got my second batch, I just went ahead and mixed the whole lot and stored it into a series of completely-full bottles like I've been doing with the developer. I'm not entirely sure if this will make it last longer, but my fingers are crossed. (My shooting has taken a nosedive in 2020, after doing a lot of "gearing up" in 2019, so when I do finally regain momentum I wouldn't be surprised if I have to replace a lot of things.)

MingMingPhoto · Jan 2, 2021

RPC said:
The Kodak publication "KODAK FLEXICOLOR CHEMICALS", under the heading "STORING CHEMICAL CONCENTRATES AND SOLUTIONS" has this to say:

"Once you open the original container, the chemicals are exposed to oxygen that will react with the chemicals and gradually cause them to deteriorate. This is especially true of developers. Oxidation occurs to some extent even if you immediately reseal the container. To reduce the effects of oxidation, store solutions in amounts that you can use at one time. For example, if you open a 10-gallon-size container, mix the entire amount, and then store the solution in closed one-gallon containers. Each time you need more chemicals, open a bottle and use the entire amount. The remaining mix stored in separate containers is not exposed to air".

Thus, they advocate using my method.

God bless you <3
Yeah that makes sense.

Okay so I have one other question and a comment,
I received my Developer Starter (S) and all the replenisher parts (A,B,B) in containers that had no formal seals under their lids. Is that normal?
But the Bleach and Fix were both formally sealed with some kind of adhesive seal under the lid.

Another thing is I read Bleach likes Air, so is it safe to say that I can keep my RA Bleach in it's original container and use as needed (It requires no mixing at all)

MattKing said:
I've read RPC's posts on these and related issues for 14 years now.
He (I think RPC is a he) is experienced. His advice is good.

Thank you for the confirmation! I feel annoying for being so cynical but this is good to hear that he's been in the field for at minimum 14 years

Also that quote is really good, and really applies to life very well. and to everything.. like in this book my frined gave me called "Trip Psychedelics Alienation, and Change" By Tao Lin he says something about truth being practically non existant and that something can usually only be "True enough" which honestly remidns me of that quote you posted and is something I need to learn to live by (I have a habbit of wanting something explained 5 different ways before I am confident I understand what they are saying)

dkonigs said:
The first time I mixed Kodak's RA-4 Bleach/Fix, I took the approach of incrementally mixing the concentrate a liter at a time. After a few months, the "fixer" concentrate started to settle into a sediment at the bottom of its container and I had to buy fresh.

When I got my second batch, I just went ahead and mixed the whole lot and stored it into a series of completely-full bottles like I've been doing with the developer. I'm not entirely sure if this will make it last longer, but my fingers are crossed. (My shooting has taken a nosedive in 2020, after doing a lot of "gearing up" in 2019, so when I do finally regain momentum I wouldn't be surprised if I have to replace a lot of things.)

I wonder what would happen if you put the cconcentrate in a bottle that was sized to fit all of it almost exactly, vs if you mixed all the fixer and also stored it to fit a bottle exactly.. which would last longer. But based off what I'm reading here it seems like it is best to always mix it all. I think I will still conduct an experiment soon. Get one bottle of the same fix and fill it max in a 1L bottle as a concentrate and also in another bottle as a working solution and store them together and return in some time and see who held up better

MingMingPhoto · Jan 2, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@MingMingPhoto if you search long enough, the answers are here in the archives. I've done this recently and complied a neat summary for my own needs, here's what I have:

Developer starter. Keep in the original bottle. Lasts forever, use as needed.

Developer Replenisher (three-bottle 5L kit) is best to prepare the 5L of working solution and keep in air-tight bottles. Lasts at least 4 months, with some people reporting over a year.

Bleach. Keep in the original bottles. Use as needed. Lasts forever.

Fixer. Keep in the original bottles. Use as needed. Lasts forever.

Again, comments like "lasts forever" need to be taken with a grain of salt, for practical purposes it means "more than a year". I have been following this advice for about 6 months, everything is working smoothly.

Thank You!
So Fixer last as long as 6 months for you. I'm gonna have to just record what happens with my set up. Thank you so much!

Donald Qualls · Jan 2, 2021

MingMingPhoto said:
So Fixer last as long as 6 months for you. I'm gonna have to just record what happens with my set up. Thank you so much!

I'm currently using Flexicolor C-41 fixer (for black and white film, because I bought fresh along with developer starter, replenisher, and bleach when I started Flexicolor) that was stored in a shed for five years (temperature range from near 0F to above 100F), and was at least ten years expired before that. Works fine. The two liter bottle of working solution has fixed about two dozen rolls and clearing time is still well under a minute. I wouldn't recommend going this far on "lasts forever" -- it has a sulfur dioxide odor, suggesting it's way out of spec for pH -- but as long as it looks and smells right, and clears a piece of B&W leader in less than a minute, it'll work...

halfaman · Jan 3, 2021

You can do two things with the developer.

- Mix 5 liters and store them in full air-tight bottles of a volume of your convenience.
- Store in the same way but only the CD concentrate part (part C?). It is the sensitive part, the rest keep well opened.

The good thing about the second option is that you need smaller bottles, but could too small to be practical. It depends of each particular chemistry, in my case (Fuji Environeg LR AC) it is impossible because CD part is extrememely concentrate.

RA fixer is based on thyocinate which has excellent shelf life but it can smell more intensely than thiosulphate opened. Keep it in mind when you choose where you are going to keep it.

mnemosyne · Jan 5, 2021

I second what RPC has written and as an alternative to tightly filled glass containers would recommend to keep the btach in one or several EVOH (oxygen barrier) wine bags (typically 3 or 5 liter size). The replenisher will keep fresh for several years this way. My current batch of Flexicolor was mixed up in mid 2017 and is still working properly. The color is still a bright straw to amber color as it should be. Same for RA-4 developer, btw. The EVOH wine bags have some strong points for them:

they are more secure (don't break when dropped) and flexible in storage (much easier to store 20 liters in 4x5 liter wine bags than in 20 x 1 liter sized glass jugs)
every time you pour developer from a glass container, air will get into contact with the solution. You can drive it out of the bottle with the help of some inert gas before closing the cap again, but a wine bag is a "more perfect" solution as it will not let any air get in contact with the contents at all, even at the moment when you draw developer through the spout (the bag simply shrinks)
it is much easier to visually check the color of solution (which is a good indicator of the developer's condition) in the transparent wine bags than in brown glass bottles

You can certainly go down the path that halfaman has described (using only part of the concentrate that you need for the next developing session and keep the rest in tightly closed bottles), but be prepared to make some delicate measurements of small concentrate volumes (if done by the book, down to the split milliliter level). There are tables out there (some private, some "official") that are supposed to give you the right amounts of concentrates for mixing up smaller volumes of working solution, but they are of limited help. You will have to double check by measuring the total volumes of the concentrates first. And don't except the totals to be nice round numbers! I have learned this the hard way with some Ektacolor RA-4 developer concentrates where I relied on a table, only to find I had a surplus of 50 something cc of developer concentrate after mixing what was supposed to be my final batch. Oops. Not a major problem with RA-4 but certainly to be avoided with C41. So, if you do this, be prepared to measure the volume totals of the concentrates and do the proper math (and take note of it!) prior to mixing up the first working solutions. The bottomline is that I regard this alternative (splitting concentrates) as rather complicated and error prone, and I fail to see see any substantial benefit in it - with proper precautions, the mixed working solutions will keep just fine.

halfaman · Jan 5, 2021

mnemosyne said:
every time you pour developer from a glass container, air will get into contact with the solution. You can drive it out of the bottle with the help of some inert gas before closing the cap again, but a wine bag is a "more perfect" solution as it will not let any air get in contact with the contents at all, even at the moment when you draw developer through the spout (the bag simply shrinks)

Or by filing completely a smaller bottle. It is what I do, I never leave a bottle half filled. The wine bag is an interesting idea nevertheless, Can you provide a link of the specific wine bag you are using?

destroya · Jan 5, 2021

Old Gregg said:
These were recommended on photrio multiple times and that's what I use:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PP9YPK7/

I posted that link. those bags work great. I usually have 2 bags, 1 for working solution and 1 for replenishment. this comes in handy especially foe E-6 which has 6 bags. a 3L bag for replenished and 1.5L for working solution. you can top off both bags because of the refillable top, squeeze as much air out as you can and then use the poorer to get your replenish amount. makes life much easier.

I have yet to mix up the entire amount of my chems. with flexicolor, I mix up 4.5 liters at a time for developer and then top off the remaining stock bottles with propane to keep them fresh. 2 years and still going strong.

john

mnemosyne · Jan 5, 2021

halfaman said:
Or by filing completely a smaller bottle. It is what I do, I never leave a bottle half filled. The wine bag is an interesting idea nevertheless, Can you provide a link of the specific wine bag you are using?

This is what I use

These bags go under the "bag-in-box" brand name here in Germany. From the design of the spout they seem to be of the same type as the product linked by Old Gregg but without the "easy fill" opening. The magic is in the material of the bags, which is a sandwich of two layers, one PE and one EVOH, the latter of which works as a very effective oxygen barrier. Else it wouldn't be possible to store wine or fruit juices in these bags (the basic application which they are sold for).

sillo · May 3, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@MingMingPhoto if you search long enough, the answers are here in the archives. I've done this recently and complied a neat summary for my own needs, here's what I have:

Developer starter. Keep in the original bottle. Lasts forever, use as needed.

Developer Replenisher (three-bottle 5L kit) is best to prepare the 5L of working solution and keep in air-tight bottles. Lasts at least 4 months, with some people reporting over a year.

Bleach. Keep in the original bottles. Use as needed. Lasts forever.

Fixer. Keep in the original bottles. Use as needed. Lasts forever.

Again, comments like "lasts forever" need to be taken with a grain of salt, for practical purposes it means "more than a year". I have been following this advice for about 6 months, everything is working smoothly.

So I just mixed up my Flexicolor developer. I mixed the entire 5 liters of replenisher and added the required amount of starter + water for a total of ~6.5 liters. I stored that in individual 1 liter PET soda bottles with as much air squeezed out as possible and plan on using the full working solution 1 shot in a jobo. Should I not have mixed in the starter until I was ready to open the next liter? Does it matter? So many conflicting opinions lol.

sillo · May 3, 2021

@Old Gregg thanks for getting back quick. Guess we'll just have to find out and see, worst case another batch of replenisher is only like $13 so it won't be too much of a disaster.

Donald Qualls · May 4, 2021

sillo said:
@Old Gregg thanks for getting back quick. Guess we'll just have to find out and see, worst case another batch of replenisher is only like $13 so it won't be too much of a disaster.

The developer with starter mixed in probably won't last quite as well as the replenisher -- not because of the starter, but because it's more dilute. I wouldn't expect to see a large difference, though; if your storage bottles are glass or PET and have no air space, it should be fine for at least several months. As you say, developer replenisher is inexpensive. I wasn't aware of the poor keeping of the C component when I mixed mine; I just mixed a liter of tank solution and a liter of replenisher, so I'll probably dispose of what I have left (or order some CD-4 to substitute as suggested up the thread).

Next time I make up a batch, I'll probably mix the whole 5L and put it in a wine pouch/box. In that storage, it's likely to last as long as it takes me to use it up (at 30-some ml replenishment per roll, that's close to 30 rolls per liter -- or around 160 rolls for a 5L package -- which is at least a couple years for me).

Flexicolor Chemical Storage

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