Flexible auto-thyristor flash for use with fast films

p. rex · Jul 14, 2014

Hey all,

I'm interested in learning how to work with flash, and was wondering whether you guys could recommend one that would suit my needs. My major goal is to figure out a setup that allows me to shoot in typical indoor environments while preserving as much of the ambient light as possible. My plan was to use fast color print film (probably Portra 400 pushed to 800), using an 80C filter to bring the ambient light closer to daylight, plus, of course, a half CTO gel on the flash to compensate. I planned on exposing the ambient light 1.5 to 2 stops below the flash, but to get anywhere near that, I'll need to use wide apertures. My problem is that most of the common auto-thyristor flashes don't allow this with fast films! With the Vivitar 283, for example, I'd have to use the lowest automatic setting, which would be correctly exposed at something like f/4, set the aperture at f/2, and put a 2-stop ND gel on it. This would work, but it seems inelegant. Is there a good auto-thyristor flash that has more flexible automatic settings, avoiding the need for the ND gels?

Of course, if you think this is the wrong approach, then please let me know. I do know that tungsten light will be too warm with an 80C filter, but I really do not want to lose two stops, and I think that the warmer color in the background will be pleasing.

FYI, I will be using this with a Pentax ESII, an early 70s SLR with maximum 1/60 sync speed.

Lastly, two other semi-related questions: will a zoom head help if I want to do portraits with my 85mm lens? And will most flashes adequately cover the field of view with a 28mm lens?

Thanks for your patience and understanding,

Jordan

jp498 · Jul 14, 2014

What's the indoor space? It's possible you could light the whole room with an old studio monolight flash (white lightning 10000 for example) and be done with filters, etc...

A vivitar 285hv is a good step up from 283 and will work with a 28mm lens. Zoom head only gets you more range, little else.

p. rex · Jul 14, 2014

Thanks, JP. The setting will most likely be ordinary home interiors. I'm not really any kind of professional; I just want good people pictures at parties and in other small social settings. The studio flash is an interesting idea. However, I wanted to get more ambient light into the picture. Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

*edit* I should also clarify that my budget is very limited. If there's a need for expensive hardware to do this right, I can make that happen, but it will entail a lot of scrimping and saving.

BrianShaw · Jul 14, 2014

I don't do that kind of work often, but when I do it is always easier to use flash in manual mode and a flashmeter to establish the proper balance of flash-to-ambient.

Xmas · Jul 14, 2014

If the ceiling is white set the gun sensor to its longest range setting and point the gun directly at the ceiling.

Omit colour balance with daylight film.

mgb74 · Jul 14, 2014

I think the Viv 285 will allow more control, not sure. Then there are the older Metz units - they tend to be very cheap for their capability and quality.

jp498 · Jul 14, 2014

If you can light a white ceiling with powerful flash ($100 used wl10000, 285hv, metz), it create illumination slightly more diffuse than existing ceiling lights, which are point source. It can work well. If you want to be casual-social and not mess around, digital works well in low light.

BrianShaw · Jul 14, 2014

jp498 said:
... If you want to be casual-social and not mess around, digital works well in low light.

You're fired.

p. rex · Jul 14, 2014

The flashmeter is an interesting idea, but aren't they expensive? I know that the Sekonic one that everyone uses is like $300.

Xmas, I know that I can rely on a powerful flash to do all the work, but I was hoping to preserve more ambient light. You could say I'm interested in "dragging the shutter," if you will.

DLawson · Jul 14, 2014

BrianShaw said:
You're fired.

Being a flash thread, I think you mean that he is discharged.

Chan Tran · Jul 14, 2014

My most powerful flash unit is the one that is capable of deliver the least amount of light. On auto it can reliably deliver good exposure at f/2.8 and ISO 800. The full power guide number is 197 but it's cheated measured with a flash meter it's only 150 which is 0.8 stop less light. On manual I can dial it down to 1/256 power which is claimed by the manufacturer a GN of 12.3 but measured a mere 10.

trythis · Jul 14, 2014

p. rex said:
The flashmeter is an interesting idea, but aren't they expensive? I know that the Sekonic one that everyone uses is like $300.

Gossen Luna Pro F! Sub $100 meter. I got one with all the attachments on ebay for ~$60. Its big but extremely versatile. The Luna six f is the eu version.

MattKing · Jul 15, 2014

A couple of points to mention.

I wouldn't count on consistent colour temperature from the ambient light. With the advent of CFLs, colour temperature is even more variable than it used to be.

If you are looking for a flash that works best with wide apertures, go smaller. The lower power flashes usually require wider apertures.

Alternatively, something like a Metz 60 or 45 series flash will most likely give you a wider choice of auto apertures. Used ones can be found fairly inexpensively. Watch out for trigger voltage issues with electronic cameras.

Chan Tran · Jul 15, 2014

While my Metz 60CT4 can do auto at f/2.8 and ISO 800. My smaller flash units the Minolta 320x, Nikon SB-16 and Nikon SB-15 all do auto at f/4 and ISO100 minimum and thus at ISO 800 it's f/11.

Nuff · Jul 15, 2014

Chan, Metz 60 is equivalent to about 4-5 of SB Nikon flashes. It pumps some serious power that no current Nikon flash can match. So I have no idea what you are talking about. I used to bounce it in my room (very white) and used f8-11 with ISO 100 with ease.

Chan Tran · Jul 15, 2014

Nuff said:
Chan, Metz 60 is equivalent to about 4-5 of SB Nikon flashes. It pumps some serious power that no current Nikon flash can match. So I have no idea what you are talking about. I used to bounce it in my room (very white) and used f8-11 with ISO 100 with ease.

What I meant is that although the Metz 60CT4 can pump out a lot of light when needed it also with its built in sensor and thrysistor circuit can control flash in very low power. And thus it's possible to use f/2.8 with ISO 800 film and have the flash on auto. While with the smaller flash it can function in automode at much smaller aperture like f/11 when using high speed film like ISO800. What I am saying is that it is very flexible just like what the OP is asking for.

mgb74 · Jul 15, 2014

The Metz 60 uses a somewhat specialized sealed lead acid battery and they are often dead (and can't be recharged). Exact replacements are expensive. The is also a Li-On battery that is expensive and requires different charger but does provide much higher capacity.

However, it's possible to use an inexpensive off the shelf SLA battery, though it won't fit in the original battery case. I "resurrected" a Metz 60 for under $10 using this battery.

p. rex · Jul 15, 2014

Thanks, Chan; that's exactly what I'm looking for -- a flash that can work well at low power levels. My big issue with the Metz, though, is the size. It's absolutely enormous. I was hoping for something a little more compact -- not a *small* flash, but at least one that can fit on camera when needed. Taking off-the-shelf alkaline batteries would be another big plus.

Steve Smith · Jul 15, 2014

Another vote for the Vivitar 285 here. It is very controllable with its auto colour settings.

Download the manual and see if it will do what you want. I'm sure ir will.

Steve.

Dan Fromm · Jul 15, 2014

Funny. The Vivitar 283 and 285 both have ISO 100/feet guide numbers of 100. The 283 with VP-1 offers a wider range of power settings than the 285. That's why I settled on 283s for one of my macro rigs.

John Koehrer · Jul 15, 2014

Dan Fromm said:
Funny. The Vivitar 283 and 285 both have ISO 100/feet guide numbers of 100. The 283 with VP-1 offers a wider range of power settings than the 285. That's why I settled on 283s for one of my macro rigs.

Exactly what I like about the 283. I didn't have the zoom head or variable power out of the box, but they were accessories. The zoom head is where most of the added 285 bulk is.

I'm not sure that what you want to do is practical with auto flash in a small/average sized room.
Seems like it would be easier manually.

I have seen quite a bit using the ambient background at dusk or night time. but there was a much greater difference between foreground and background.

p. rex · Jul 16, 2014

Hmm, you may have a valid point. A manual flash with a flash meter will give more control. But that will involve a slower and more deliberate style of work. I was imagining something a little more spontaneous. The Sunpak 321/322 flashes seem to allow automatic use with wider apertures. I'd imagine that they aren't enormously powerful, but they bounce and swivel and have PC cord hookups, in case I decide I want to start fooling around with triggering. Anyone see a flaw with this, beyond the fact that I probably won't be able to light huge rooms with the thing? I know that it's inherently limited compared to the handle-mounted monsters, or even something like a Vivitar 283, but it seems to suit my needs, at least on paper.

lxdude · Jul 16, 2014

p. rex said:
Is there a good auto-thyristor flash that has more flexible automatic settings, avoiding the need for the ND gels?

There is another way to cut light output without ND gels: diffuse it. Very useful with ultra wide angles, and it ameliorates the harshness of straight-on electronic flash. It takes a little experimenting to figure out what you like. Some people use white margarine tubs or clear Tupperware containers over the flash tube. I prefer using white paper or cloth. Bouncing off the ceiling will help if it's too flat straight on, as will leaving a bit of the flash tube uncovered.
A colored ceiling will color a bounced shot, though.

Jim Jones · Jul 16, 2014

To reduce flash output, the flash can be filtered or masked. B&W sheet film evenly exposed and developed makes a practical neutral density filter for low power flashes. Really strong flashes can fry the film. A durable mask can be fabricated from thin sheet metal by drilling an array of holes in it. An array of many small holes shouldn't affect the flash pattern.

BrianShaw · Jul 16, 2014

it is always easier to use flash in manual mode and a flashmeter to establish the proper balance of flash-to-ambient.

Flexible auto-thyristor flash for use with fast films

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