flattening forte fiber

john c · Jul 17, 2006

so i have printed exhibit quality prints on Forte PW fibre and they're looking good, but they do not seem to want to sit flat. the prints have a bow to them. this seems to be natural to the paper. if i go thru my normal process of moistening the back then placing the print under a pile of books for a week they come out worse: wrinkled, ruined.

any hints and/or suggestions?

Travis Nunn · Jul 17, 2006

I dry mine on screens and then put them in a drymount press at 100 C for 1 1/2 minutes. Flat as a board.

George Papantoniou · Jul 18, 2006

I just printed a packet of PW fiber to try it last week (I rather liked it, that is for a VC paper )...

I don't think it dried more curled that any other paper I've used (I dry my prints on screens)...

I think your trick of moistening the back of the prints and then putting them under weight is not correct. There are other ways, more efficient and safe to flatten FB prints. There have been several discussions about them on APUG, I am sure that you can find them if you do a search.

Travis is right, but then you need to buy a drymount press (there are cheaper solutions)...

FrankB · Jul 18, 2006

I've standardised now on combining a couple of tips from Les and from Aggie.

I squeegee the wet prints front and back and leave them to air-dry, first face up and then, when they get past the 'tacky' stage (feel, not subject matter! ), face down. When they're dry I go over them with a medium iron (no steam) and immediately put them under a stack of books for 24 hours.

Lovely flat prints!

don sigl · Jul 18, 2006

I have a dry mount press now, but for years, I air dried fiber prints. I found I had varying results and finally realized that it was related to humidity. In the summer, I found that my prints air dried on screens came out workably flat. In the winter, I experienced much more curl. Increasing the humidity (which slows down the drying time) seemed to help me a lot. Of course, you can go too far with this, and the prints will take days to dry. 11x14 Forte PWT prints in my darkroom dry almost perfectly flat this time of year. The relative humidity in the darkroom is about 65-68%. I leave them overnight at about 75F and the next day they get a short time in the dry mount press and then under weight for about 10 minutes.

You might want to check the humidity in your darkroom and get a small humidifier if you find your dryimg in low humidity.

D

dmax · Jul 19, 2006

I think Don's right about humidity being an important factor. Here in very dry Southern California (primarily a desert environment), prints curl like crazy. Regardless of brand, all fiber papers that I have ever worked with curl. Dried on screens, hung with clips, set between pages of blotter paper, spread on newspapers, spread on cloth, face up, face down, put under a hot press, ironed with the wife's appliance, and still they curl. I used to get not-too-curly prints by using Kodak's Print Flattening Solution, or a similar Edwal product. I think that the glycerin (or is that glycerine?) helped to retain moisture in the gelatin longer, thus allowing a better balance (if it can be called that) between the differential rates of drying between the paper base and the gelatin surface. When I was in humid Southeast Asia, fiber prints generally lay flat all by themselves without any outside help!

dancqu · Jul 19, 2006

john c said:
...the prints have a bow to them.
this seems to be natural to the paper.
any hints and/or suggestions?

I'm quite sure the bow is natural to the paper. A
sheet looks as though it is a length wise section
from a large to very large diameter cylinder. IIRC,
the concavity is on the emulsion side.

Sheets dried using my A flute ventilator grade
corrugated board blotter stack dryer equipped with
hydrophobic separators also display that bow. Dan

Eric Rose · Jul 19, 2006

I've given up on Forte altogether due to the extreme curling I have experienced. In some cases the prints emulsion would crack with only minimal flexing. Forte has some nice tonal qualities, but unfortunately their QC sucks in my experience.

KenM · Jul 19, 2006

Eric, are you squeegeeing both sides of the print? I only wipe down the emulsion side of the print. This leaves a bit of water on the paper base, which I think balances with the amount of water left in the emulsion. My prints are quite flat when dry - no excessive curve.

Living in the dry climate that we do, you have to be aware that one side doesn't dry faster than the other - only wiping the emulsion side may help you out here...

To the original question: dry mount press for a couple of minutes, sandwiched between some mat board. Prints come out with a gentle curve...

Eric Rose · Jul 19, 2006

KenM said:
Eric, are you squeegeeing both sides of the print? I only wipe down the emulsion side of the print. This leaves a bit of water on the paper base, which I think balances with the amount of water left in the emulsion. My prints are quite flat when dry - no excessive curve.

Living in the dry climate that we do, you have to be aware that one side doesn't dry faster than the other - only wiping the emulsion side may help you out here...

To the original question: dry mount press for a couple of minutes, sandwiched between some mat board. Prints come out with a gentle curve...

I use the same technique you do. It's just that I have found the paper to be inconsistant from one box to the next. One box is a dream and the next a nightmare when it comes to cracking etc. Actually come to think of it, this only happens with the cold tone stuff. Not the warmtone. Go figure.

Given the cost I will just stick to something I know is good box after box, such as Ilford. Seems Ilford is the choice for 98% of the high end FB printers these days anyway. If it's good enough for them .......

sergio caetano · Jul 19, 2006

John
Try glicerine 1:10 after washing / before drying.

wfe · Jul 19, 2006

I press mine in a dry mount press and they are perfectly flat.

don sigl · Jul 20, 2006

Erik:

Ilford may seem like its the choice of 98% of the high end printers, but this high end printer would not fall in that category. Although I would agree that Ilford makes quality papers (and film products), I would not consider their papers to be the best choice for any of my work. In my experience I have found that its usually the talents of the printer that makes the difference regardless of the paper. The best that a paper can offer is potential. In my opinion, there are papers out there that offer more potential than any of the Ilford papers. so to your comment, its not good enough for me....

D

pentaxuser · Jul 20, 2006

FrankB said:
I've standardised now on combining a couple of tips from Les and from Aggie.

I squeegee the wet prints front and back and leave them to air-dry, first face up and then, when they get past the 'tacky' stage (feel, not subject matter! ), face down. When they're dry I go over them with a medium iron (no steam) and immediately put them under a stack of books for 24 hours.

Lovely flat prints!

Frank. Just a couple of points for clarification if I may.
1. Face up and face down air drying on what?
2. How long to get past tacky stage?
3. How long until dry face up and down?
4. What is medium iron in terms of clothes? That's all my iron shows. On mine it looks to be about nylon to silk, max?
5. Iron on back only I take it?
6. How stacked in pile under books? Any interleaving such as paper towels required or are they by then tough enough to placed one on top of another without damage.

I haven't tried FB yet and I am trying to get a feel of what hassle is involved and what is simplest method. Yours sounds quite attractive.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Jeanne · Jul 20, 2006

I only use fiber paper, mostly Forte, and get perfectly flat prints by taping them to dry. I have 6 or 8 storm windows, and use art tape (Bemis art tape is good) . Hang the print to dry for a few minutes, to get the excess water off, then lay them on the glass and tape. about half an inch of tape on the print itself, all four sides, and you're good. When they're dry, use a razor and straight edge to cut them free.

Until recently, I scrubbed and razor-bladed the glass clean after each session -- now, since I generally always use the same size paper, I just re-use it. Prints are always flat, and there's never any dry down factor to deal with, since they don't shrink at all.

dancqu · Jul 21, 2006

Jeanne said:
...then lay them on the glass and tape.

Emulsion side up? Ever try sponging? Photo grade
sponges are still available. No water here and there
and no wait until damp dry. Dan

Jeanne · Jul 21, 2006

dancqu said:
Emulsion side up? Ever try sponging? Photo grade
sponges are still available. No water here and there
and no wait until damp dry. Dan

Yes, emulsion side up -- and I only let them hang for a minute or so, just long enough to get the excess water off so that it doesn't pool on the surface. Nothing even close to "damp dry."

dancqu · Jul 22, 2006

Jeanne said:
Yes, emulsion side up -- and I only let them hang
for a minute or so, just long enough to get the excess
water off so that it doesn't pool on the surface.
Nothing even close to "damp dry."

That "perfectly flat prints" intrigues. Ready
to hang with hinges?

Rather than glass how about some counter type
material; Formica? And for tape a painter's masking
tape? Do you roll or squeegee the print flat prior to
taping? I'd likely give sponge dry and flat a try,
then tape.

The method is too quick and easy to execute to
leave untried. Stacks of sheets should take only a
little room. Dry and flat at one blow; results very
similar to my blotter stack dryer. Ventilation
grade corrugated board speeds drying but
it still takes two or three days. Dan

Jeanne · Jul 22, 2006

no, masking tape isn't strong enough. you need a water-activated tape. Bemis art tape or the equivelant -- used by watercolorists to tape their prints.

Your material will need to be strong enogh to take repeated cutting with an exacto knife or razor blade. that's why glass is good. I stack my windows one on top of the other and use empty film cartridges to separate them. Don't try standing them up, because the glue from the tape can run down the print.

I don't roll or squeege, and yes, I hinge mount these, just fine. I used to run the side of my hand over them once they were on the glass, to get the excess water off, but I don't do that anymore -- that's why I hang them for a bit. You need to leave a good margin when you print, to accomodate the tape, but it's a well provn method.

I'm pretty humid here, right on the ocean, and a day or so is all it takes.

George Papantoniou · Jul 23, 2006

Jeanne's watercolour tape method is quite old and tested. There is no problem with it except that it won't work with really big prints (like the ones we once tried and the tension was so strong that it teared the print apart - the prints were 1m20 x 1m80, though) and that you'll have to make your prints with really large borders, although this is the recommended way to do it (you'll need paper one size bigger that the prints you'll want to make). This is because the tape should be stuck half-width on the paper and the rest on the glass, and it's quite wide (about 5 cm).

Jerevan · Jul 24, 2006

I happened to stumble upon this page with a nice cold press for those who seek more elegant variations on the "blotter paper and heavy book" theme.

catem · Jul 24, 2006

For all FB prints, including Forte, I hang back to back on a line (with four pegs, one at each corner, right at the corner), when completely dry I put individually between sheets of glass or matte board with heavy books on top, at least overnight, often longer. Always works - some papers would not be quite as flat as an RC print for example, but I don't feel that's necessary. If you're short of time you can use an iron to help, (pentaxuser - on 'nylon' or 'silk' I'd say, maybe 'wool', definitely not 'cotton' or 'linen') but it always makes me nervous so tend not to do it....

arigram · Jul 24, 2006

The other day I printed some Forte Polywarmtone and hanged them to dry on a line like I do with all my prints just with the support of some heavy clothes pegs at the bottom. They come out quite flat, only with a very slight natural curve.

Ryuji · Jul 24, 2006

sergio caetano said:
Try glicerine 1:10 after washing / before drying.

This technique is not recommended for archival reason. Glycerol (glycerin) is a humectant and it tends to accelerate oxidative degradation of the silver image.

Sportera · Jul 24, 2006

I used Forte PW a lot and the curling is always and issue, Ive foound that once flattened in a press, if I put them in glassine envelops they will stay flat. However when exposed to humidity they will curl again.

Ive switched back to Ilford Warm FB for this and consistency reasons. The Forte is beautiful paper and I do use it still but I prefer the Ilford paper for projects where consistency matters.

flattening forte fiber

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