Flashbulb Alternative

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

I don't see a forum for hybrid in that section, so I'm hoping this isn't a violation.

I'm on the prowl for an electronic flash 'bulb' that will insert in an old flash holder. Shouldn't be that difficult these days. I can see a small bit of electronics and 4-AA batteries in a tube that slides into the D or C cell handle, with adapter sockets for different bases. Basically an electronic flash adapted to the original flash unit.

Anyone know of such an animal? With film becoming more prominent, it doesn't seem like this is such a stretch.

cjbecker · May 4, 2021

I would really like such a think also. One that fits right in where the press 25 bulb fit.

BrianShaw · May 4, 2021

Never heard of or seen such a thing.

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

It would be a niche market, very boutique and likely expensive, but I can see it being something vintage camera users would go for.

I wonder if it would even be possible to have a stand-alone bulb that fits the socket and is powered from the original battery source? I've seen 2-battery flashes before so we know 3 volts would work. The wiring is already there. Think of something like the current batch of LED's where the transformer is built into the bulb itself.

It could be supplied with multiple bases to adapt to whatever base your unit uses. Or more likely you'd have to buy a different base for each use, but the flash unit itself could be swapped from base to base.

Nicholas Lindan · May 4, 2021

Electronic flashes have some pretty high voltages applied to the flash tube - usually a large condenser charged to a few hundred volts and a trigger transformer supplying a few thousand volts. You really don't want these connections to be accessible. Imagine the inside of your thumb lighting up like a flash. I've had minor high-voltage burns and they hurt, they go deep. I've talked to a client who had major burns from their arm falling across a high voltage capacitor bank - not pretty. The capacitor bank made a hole in their skin leading down to an area of well done cooked meat - the energy in an electronic flash won't go that far, but...

A high intensity LED flash, as used on a cell phone, is a better alternative but the light output is low compared to a Press 25 bulb.

The flash circuit in a camera only applies the voltage to the lamp socket for a short while so any LED flash would have to work directly off the flash contacts and the battery rather than a charged capacitor.

Flash bulbs are plentiful on ebay. I confess to chucking a large box (as in the box that produce comes in) of the things in a dumpster some years ago.

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

Nicholas Lindan said:
Electronic flashes have some pretty high voltages applied to the flash tube - usually a large condenser charged to a few hundred volts and a trigger transformer supplying a few thousand volts. You really don't want these connections to be accessible. Imagine the inside of your thumb lighting up like a flash. I've had minor high-voltage burns and they hurt, they go deep. I've talked to a client who had major burns from their arm falling across a high voltage capacitor bank - not pretty. The capacitor bank made a hole in their skin leading down to an area of well done cooked meat - the energy in an electronic flash won't go that far, but...

A high intensity LED flash, as used on a cell phone, is a better alternative but the light output is low compared to a Press 25 bulb.

The flash circuit in a camera only applies the voltage to the lamp socket for a short while so any LED flash would have to work directly off the flash contacts and the battery rather than a charged capacitor.

Flash bulbs are plentiful on ebay. I confess to chucking a large box (as in the box that produce comes in) of the things in a dumpster some years ago.

Everything you describe can be overcome if someone wanted to. I can see an open socket with the batteries installed being a problem, but I'm sure if someone thought on it for a spell there's be an option. For instance, the unit can't be activated without the 'bulb' plugged in so no chance of discharge without the bulb. The final connection is made inside the bulb itself.

A cellphone flash typically consists of a single bulb. This could contain several. Moreover, the reflector on the flash could be left in play to focus the light.

There's no doubt in my mind it's doable, the only restriction is getting someone interested who has the required R&D $ to make it happen. If there isn't enough market for it, then it's dead in the water. Which is, I suppose, why I'm wishing one into existence as opposed to buying one off Amazon!

mshchem · May 4, 2021

Biggest issue is synchronization. Flashbulbs are triggered WAY* before the shutter opens to let it get burning. X synchronization is instantaneous it goes off when the shutter is open.

*WAY being several milliseconds.

wiltw · May 4, 2021

A big prolem, even if a xenon source with flashbulb dimensions were engineered, is the issue of FLASH SYNCHRONIZATION.

Shutters designed to work with flashbulbs had a timer delay between applying voltage to the bulb and when the shutter actually opened. So a xenon source would be immediately fired and finish in about 1/1000 second (or within the first 1-2ms), well before the M-sync shutter opened, about 20ms later!

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

wiltw said:
A big prolem, even if a xenon source with flashbulb dimensions were engineered, is the issue of FLASH SYNCHRONIZATION.

Shutters designed to work with flashbulbs had a timer delay between applying voltage to the bulb and when the shutter actually opened. So a xenon source would be immediately fired and finish in about 1/1000 second (or within the first 1-2ms), well before the M-sync shutter opened, about 20ms later!

Not if the delay is built into the unit. This should be simple for an electronics engineer to overcome. I would think it could be adjustable for a couple different syncs, maybe even variable.

mshchem · May 4, 2021

I gave away a 5 gallon bucket of all manner of flashbulbs. They are a beautiful source, especially with ASA 10 Kodachrome

wiltw · May 4, 2021

Brownie_Holiday said:
Not if the delay is built into the unit. This should be simple for an electronics engineer to overcome. I would think it could be adjustable for a couple different syncs, maybe even variable.

Indeed. Variable delay is probably wise, as the 20ms which I commented about is an APPROXIMATION within a range of typical delay times. As the M-sync bulb is a failry long duration burn, the precisioni in timing was not essential...just get the filament enough time to start burning. In this case, we have to wait an uncertain amount of time after the M-sync shtter is known to be open before energizing the xenon flashtube.

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

Ah well...it's pie in the sky anyway.

cjbecker · May 4, 2021

If anybody has extra press 25 or equivalent, let me know!!

wiltw · May 4, 2021

cjbecker said:
If anybody has extra press 25 or equivalent, let me know!!

I have 6 Sylvania P25B, selling for what they cost me, plus shipping

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/flashbulbs-25b.162926/

BrianShaw · May 4, 2021

Brownie_Holiday said:
This should be simple

Famous last words! If it was simple and be a marketable idea I think it would have been done long ago... during the flash bulb to electronic flash transition. Now... niche of a niche of a niche.

BrianShaw · May 4, 2021

Brownie_Holiday said:
Ah well...it's pie in the sky anyway.

Ah... you are very realistic!!

Sirius Glass · May 4, 2021

Flash powder.

Brownie_Holiday · May 4, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Famous last words! If it was simple and be a marketable idea I think it would have been done long ago... during the flash bulb to electronic flash transition. Now... niche of a niche of a niche.

You're only partially correct.

As I previously stated, the market isn't there. If it were these would be a reality already. that's the correct part.

The incorrect part is that it wouldn't have happened during the transition from bulbs to electronic flash, the technology didn't exist then. As for simple, it wouldn't be that difficult to design. Any electrical engineer worth their salt could do it.

I can operator your local municipal water plant (or anything else) from my house all the way across the country, so...

BrianShaw · May 4, 2021

LOL. Okay.

Warm Winter · May 7, 2021

There are a couple issues with the idea.
The old bulb flashes aren't continually providing power to the bulb, so you'd need power in the strobe bulb to run the flash and batteries in the flash to have power for the synchronization.
Splitting them up and running it from the bulb flash batteries wouldn't really work since the power isn't there and you'd have to charge and fire too fast for it to be practical.
Charge pump LED or classic xenon tube strobe would both have the same issue.
BC flashes would have the issue of not likely having enough to fire a xenon tube or not being safe for an LED flash, so you'd need something to interface that could be more dangerous.
The more practical one might be building the whole flash around a vintage style and using a xenon strobe or charge pump LED. It wouldn't be as powerful as a flashbulb but you'd be able to have ports for FP and X synch that could control the duration of the flash and modern batteries. With the style of many older flashes being "metal tube with reflector" it wouldn't be to hard to get the aesthetics right without having to modify an original either.

AgX · May 7, 2021

Brownie_Holiday said:
I don't see a forum for hybrid in that section, so I'm hoping this isn't a violation.

That analog/hybrid/etc. issue is only related to the way the image itself is taken and worked upon.

Electronic flashes are fine for an analog workflow as are cameras that got electronic, even digital control as for instance already the Canon AE-1.

brianmquinn · May 9, 2021

Brownie_Holiday said:
Not if the delay is built into the unit. This should be simple for an electronics engineer to overcome. I would think it could be adjustable for a couple different syncs, maybe even variable.

It has been done. See here for how simple it is to do! There are even instructions on how how to make your own copy.
Electronic Flash M-Sync Hack : 14 Steps (with Pictures) - Instructables

Flashbulbs had a delay from current reaching the bulb filament to peak light of between 5 and 30 milliseconds. The camera shutter, shutter speed and type of flashbulb were all part of the equation for getting the right amount of light to the film.

AgX · May 10, 2021

To me it is a dead project from the start, or half thought:

In case one would want to use the old flash as it is and just exchange the bulb for that "new device":

-) the voltage to the socket is only at the moment of triggering, but an electronic flash needs it way before, to charge its both capacitors, especially the main one, which takes long time.
-) the respective current can be large endangering the camera contacts
-) the delay of bulb flash synchronisation is way too short for such charging.
-) bulb sockets are 2-pole, but even a flash tube alone needs 3-pole
-) even if the above problems would not exist, the "electronics" need a rather great lot of space, especially the main capacitor. It then would have to be located together with the flash tube within the reflector, spoiling its look and shadowing the tube

The way to go is to take ALL electrical parts out of a bulb flash and mount instead all the electrical parts of an electronic flash inside its handle, except for the flash tube, that is positioned inside the reflector where the bulb was positioned.

Brownie_Holiday · May 10, 2021

brianmquinn said:
It has been done. See here for how simple it is to do! There are even instructions on how how to make your own copy.
Electronic Flash M-Sync Hack : 14 Steps (with Pictures) - Instructables

Flashbulbs had a delay from current reaching the bulb filament to peak light of between 5 and 30 milliseconds. The camera shutter, shutter speed and type of flashbulb were all part of the equation for getting the right amount of light to the film.

Nice! I figured the delay wouldn't be difficult to do by someone who knows how.

AgX said:
The way to go is to take ALL electrical parts out of a bulb flash and mount instead all the electrical parts of an electronic flash inside its handle, except for the flash tube, that is positioned inside the reflector where the bulb was positioned.

This is exactly what I envisioned, although my post was indeed a half thought. It just kind of popped into my head. But, I do think you could take an old flash grip and devise a tube that contains all of the electronics and some AA batteries and slides into place where the C or D cell batteries used to go. The last step here though would be to install the tube in a housing that looks like a flash blub so it appears as authentic as possible. It wouldn't even need to be removable without some disassembly.

brianmquinn · May 10, 2021

The easy and cheap way to go and really look authentic (as well as smell authentic) is to use real flashbulbs. That is what I do.

Flashbulb Alternative

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