Flash ... at 1/500 seconds

R.Gould · Jan 31, 2021

AgX said:
Well, I looked through dozens of textbooks on flash lighting and camera design from several countries. Not even a hint at a FP contact.

As said I see it as M-contact in disguise.

I have 2 srt 101's from the 60's that have FP socket's, FP sockets are only found on camerasas using focal plane shutters and are for special slow burn flash bulbs that were designed to maintain a constant light while the shutter slit traversed the film you can also get F sockets or snc that are meant for special high speed flash bulbs which will start to fire approx 5 miliseconds before the shutter reaches peak opening M sync was for the medium speed elictric flash bulbs, which are now obsolete class M flash bulbs have a firing delay of 18 to 22 miliseconds so M was designed to fire the flash 20 milisewconds before the shutter reaches full opening, and was used mainly with leaf shutters, and is not normally an extra socket, althoiugh IO have cameras with an extra M socket, and some with only M socket, and X sync is for electronic flash and fires the flash at the moment of full shutter opening, so you can find older cameras that use focal plane shutters with F,FP and X sync sockets, but the usual is X and FP, but rarely if ever with M sync, whichb is normaly on the older folders and cameras with leaf shutters, and thwey all serve a diffetrent purpose

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

As I said: FP is nothing more than a M-contact with new designation.
The new designation likely chosen as those photographers were typically using electronic flash and and incandescant flash only in its FP incarnation.

voceumana · Jan 31, 2021

For a focal plane camera, it isn't necessarily important to mark the camera with the flash synchronization type, but that you are aware of what it is when choosing your flashbulb. Marking the camera/shutter was common for between the lens shutters when you could select from several synchronizations. Most focal plane shutter cameras only have one type of synch.

BrianShaw · Jan 31, 2021

Isn’t FP synch a 15ms peak “delay” versus M synch’s 20ms peak “delay”?

nokia2010 · Jan 31, 2021

But with "Minolta" SRT can I "freeze" a move - lest's say a moving arm - like I do with "Exakta"? "Freeze" meaning when something is moving in the picture to appear like statnding thing, not a moving one.
And if some flashbulbs had up untill '80'-'90's some advantages when taking certain pictures, why they where dropped from use?

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Isn’t FP synch a 15ms peak “delay” versus M synch’s 20ms peak “delay”?

As indicated above just this kind of information I could not find anywhere in my printed matters. All I could find was that FB bulbs have to fired via the M conntact and FB setting being nonexistant. Thank you.
(Though to me that shorter delay makes no sense...)

BrianShaw · Jan 31, 2021

https://filmphotographyproject.com/content/howto/2018/07/flash-bulbs-lowdown/

Bulb data sheets are also useful sources...

Have you ever used flash bulbs?

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

"While M class bulbs have a light/time curve that rises quickly to its peak, then quickly dies off, FP bulbs reach peak brightness quicker (about 15 milliseconds) and burn longer at a constant intensity. This provides an even exposure as the curtains of a focal plane shutter move across the film. Their use requires a camera with an FP synch. FP synch has a shorter delay between the time the bulb fires and when the shutter is activated."

Data sheets I count to my printed matters. Though I lack american catalogs.
But flash bulbs aside the AG & consorts models had lost their position much earlier here. And even the FP model, in spite of its advantages over thr electronic flash seemingly was regarded as strange beast.

BrianShaw · Jan 31, 2021

AgX said:
"While M class bulbs have a light/time curve that rises quickly to its peak, then quickly dies off, FP bulbs reach peak brightness quicker (about 15 milliseconds) and burn longer at a constant intensity. This provides an even exposure as the curtains of a focal plane shutter move across the film. Their use requires a camera with an FP synch. FP synch has a shorter delay between the time the bulb fires and when the shutter is activated."

... and??????

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

That text above is the important source from your link proofing your statement.
I just picked it out to save others looking for it at your link.

The interesting thing at such discussions just is that the source situation may be different throughout the world, as I tried to hint at my post above.

markjwyatt · Jan 31, 2021

nokia2010 said:
But with "Minolta" SRT can I "freeze" a move - lest's say a moving arm - like I do with "Exakta"? "Freeze" meaning when something is moving in the picture to appear like statnding thing, not a moving one.
And if some flashbulbs had up untill '80'-'90's some advantages when taking certain pictures, why they where dropped from use?

Electronic flash an be as quick as 1/20,000th of a second, and that will freeze motion (potentially with ghost images if you are not careful).

Also, I recall that one reason flash bulbs continued in manufacture were for architectural photographers and others that needed a lot more light than may be practical/economic for electronic flash.

nokia2010 · Jan 31, 2021

But a electronic flash will not with old cameras at 1/125 - 1/250 second or fast, so you can freeze the image, while a flashbulb might do that... might because nobody still told me exactly if it can do that.

bdial · Feb 1, 2021

The Nikon F has a sync setting for FP bulbs and can use a 1/1000 shutter speed with them

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/manuals/nikonf/nikonfmanual/flash.htm

nokia2010 · Feb 1, 2021

So those bulbs could be used for high shutter speed at various cameras.
But I do still the 2 questions:
1) Can you "freeze" the move of the subject?;
2) Why if you could use them at times shorter then 1/60 at focal plane shooter cameras they whent out of use?
And yes, I did read somewhere that they are prefferd by the people who are taking arhitectural pictures.

R.Gould · Feb 1, 2021

nokia2010 said:
But a electronic flash will not with old cameras at 1/125 - 1/250 second or fast, so you can freeze the image, while a flashbulb might do that... might because nobody still told me exactly if it can do that.

With the shutter speed is not important in freezing motion, motion is frozen by the speed of the flash, for instance on my one Barnack leica, the F, with a flash socket, the sync speed for any flash is 1/30, however I have ''frozen'' motion with both my Metz 4cl and Vivitar flashes, with the slow syn speeds with older SLR focal plane shutters the main problem I have found is with fill flash, slow shutter speeds make i8t almost impossible, which is why if I think I might need fill flash I will use one of my Minolta Dynax's, either the 600s1,700si or 800si, which has high speed sync, but of course for fill flash a camera with leaf shutter is a doddle, x sync at all shutter speeds,

AgX · Feb 1, 2021

R.Gould said:
The shutter speed is not important in freezing motion, motion is frozen by the speed of the flash.

Yes and No...
You are right, if there is no other effective ambient light. This can be achieved by:

-) actually excluding other ambient light (as in working in dark room or outdoors in moonless night)
-) reducing ambient light down to being non-effective by lighterally stopping it down and respectively cranking up flash output
-) reducing ambient light down to being non-effective by hightening shuttter-speed

About the latter is this thread.

R.Gould · Feb 1, 2021

Unless using fill flash I very rarely use flash, I prefer to work with existing light, even if it meas hand holding down to 15 or 5, or I have managed, with leaf shutter cameras, 1/2 second, but I have taken sport shots at night, so use the flash to freeze motion if I need to, but with Covid Ect In have not used flash for over a year

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2021

BrianShaw said:
https://filmphotographyproject.com/content/howto/2018/07/flash-bulbs-lowdown/

Bulb data sheets are also useful sources...

Have you ever used flash bulbs?

Yes, at one time a lot. I have over 800 larger flash bulbs including the 2 and 11. Some are blue.

BrianShaw · Feb 1, 2021

Interesting, Steve... but that question was for AgX.

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Interesting, Steve... but that question was for AgX.

AgX · Feb 1, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Interesting, Steve... but that question was for AgX.

I got no idea either what the intention behind that question was.

I got over 1000 bulbs.

That should give me some reserve over time.

But no FP sample. As I already tried to point at, it seemingly never was an issue (or big issue) in Germany and thus did not show up in wholesalers' catalogs. Thus I can't be blamed for not using it. Or for hinting at M-sync, when that is what shows up at a manufacturer's catalog for the FP version.

I neither got any large sample as Sirius, the biggest size I ever came across and got is M3.

AgX · Feb 1, 2021

Concerning the use of bulb flashes: I never ever saw a professional use a bulb flash. That was way, way ahead of my time.

You can't blame me for that either, thus I need to resort to text-books, data-sheets etc, and then those that are available in Western-Europe.

When I am telling nonsense, please correct me. And in contrast to quite some others I admit being corrected.
But then be fair.

AgX · Feb 1, 2021

AgX said:
Yes and No...
You are right, if there is no other effective ambient light. This can be achieved by:

-) actually excluding other ambient light (as in working in dark room or outdoors in moonless night)
-) reducing ambient light down to being non-effective by lighterally stopping it down and respectively cranking up flash output
-) reducing ambient light down to being non-effective by hightening shuttter-speed

About the latter is this thread.

"About the latter is this thread."

I have to add that with high shutter speeds (as here the 1/500) the exposure time actuallly becomes shorter than the effective burning time of the flash.

Thus, in contrast to electronic flash, with bulb flashes the shutter speed even may be of importance when there is no ambient light at all.

wiltw · Feb 1, 2021

I shot with flashbulbs with rangefinder in-lens leaf shutter cameras as a kid, using either M(?) or AG-1b bulbs. I never again used flashbulbs after about 15yo, as I used a leaf shutter SLR with electronic flash. Dealing with carrying bulbs, then after shot hot bulbs (and not necessarily a wastebasket nearby) was a real bother.
Shooting electronic flash at 1/500 with SLR was a real luxury; compared to after upgrading to Olympus OM-1 and dealing with 1/60 X-sync, it was again wonderful to shoot professionaly with Bronica ETRSi with electronic flash all the way to 1/500 again.
It was not so painful stepping backward again, to deal with dSLR focal plane shutter at 1/250 X-sync flash speed; yet I have never used faster shutter HSS capability for shooting with flash.

AgX · Feb 2, 2021

Was there ever a European-made camera (thus not rebranded japanese) that got an FP-connector/setting?
Non comes to my mind.

Flash ... at 1/500 seconds

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