Flash ... at 1/500 seconds

nokia2010 · Jan 29, 2021

In a book about photography (1956 3rd edition, 1958 Romanian translation) it mentioned at one photography that the person who made that photo was using the flash at 1/500 second. But "Exakta" Varex IIa had the flash sincro at 1/50 seconds. How that person could have used 1/500 second.
It was a flasbulb (Magnesium) flash.

MattKing · Jan 29, 2021

With a leaf shutter camera, flash can be used at many more shutter speeds.
In addition, with focal plane shutters, one can use FP bulbs, which burn continuously for a relatively long time, and will permit use with shorter shutter speeds.

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

There were up to 3 synchronisation contacts (or settings) at cameras. Though having all 3 was rare.
X = electronic flash
M = medium reacting time flash bulbs
F = fast reacting time flash bulbs

The FP bulbs (not to being mixed up in general with the PF designation) are medium time reacting and furthermore very long time burning.They best be used on the M-contact or setting.

Exakta Varex IIa had all 3 contacts.

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

Thanks for the info. So with M contact it wasn't necesarly that the specificallly design 1/50 second exposure time desinged for flash sincro.
I have one "Canon" Canonet camera (1st model) with leaf shutter (not focal plane like at "Exakta"). M is for medium reacting time flash bulbs?

R.Gould · Jan 30, 2021

M is for flash bulbs, x is for electronic flash, with leaf shutters and electronic flash you have flash sync at all shutter speeds, which is very handy for fill flash with portraits Ect, but be carefull that when using electronic flash you don't have flash set to m as you will get a blank frame as the sync is different, I mention this as it has happened to me with my Rolleicord once, and I spent hours wondering what happened before I Realised my mistake

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

I know that the sincro won't work properly if I use M connector for X flashes. I managed to ruin some images by moving the flash sincro adjusting wheel at a "Zorki" 4 camera...
Anyway, when I will get me a "Exakta" I will try the thing with the flash. But 1st of all I will have to find a big flash unit and some big flashbulbs and finding that in Romania...

R.Gould · Jan 30, 2021

I haven't used flash bulbs in years, AFIK no one makes them any more, you shoud be able to find a flash gun for bulb flash, but you will have a search for old stock flash bulbs,

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

It's hard to find a flash unit. Bublbs not so hard. They still do make bulbs! 60 U.S. $ per 10 pieces.
I wonder if at this you can put bigger bulbs.

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

Focal Plane flash bulbs may have been a rather regional thing. Out of the two major west-european manufacturers Osram and Philips only Philips made such. And not even from the start. Furthermore in none of the west-german or european sales catalogs I got, I found them listed.
Also in german textbooks this type was the first no longer hinted at, when other types were still described.

voceumana · Jan 30, 2021

The book's stated shutter speed might have been an error by the author or a typographical error--it's easy to mix 1/50 and 1/500.

R.Gould · Jan 30, 2021

The really big bulbs will be harder to find, I remember once, this was back in the seventies, I hsd to take a photograph of a Glen Miller type band inside a hanger, and show the detail of the hanger, standard electronic flash, such as the Metz hammer head flashes were useless, ad no way could I use any form pf studio flash or studio tungstan lighting could be used, much to big in those days so could not be hidden, so the only answer was to use 150 to 200 flash bulbs which were easily and gave a lovely light to suit the period of the band, wartime and all in full uniform giving a Glen Miller wartime concert, it took 2 of us 4 hours to set them up properly, then set up a LF camera, we used magic eye sync things and just one flash on camera, problem we could not test it, too expensive bulbs cost £150, a lot of money in those days, so only one chance, so said a prayer, set the camera and at the right time pressed the shutter, every bulb fired, then held our breath when in the darkroom developing the film (Orto film, correct fotr the period) then breathed again with a beutiful negative that printed so easily, and 4 very happy customers

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

I have even never come across bigger bulbs than shown by the OP.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2021

MattKing said:
With a leaf shutter camera, flash can be used at many more shutter speeds.

... and the Guide Number at each shutter speed varies because of shutter efficiency. Higher shutter speeds result in lower guide numbers.

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

I know about the fact that when shutter speed increases, the guidance number decreases.
On ebay.co.uk (I will have to pay import duties) I've seen some big ones too.
If you turn at image 202 on this page: https://archive.org/details/PracticaFotografic/page/n201/mode/2up
you will se some "Osram" bulbs that worked at 1/500 - 1/1000 second (this is the book from whic I found about "Exakta").
So if at an "Exakta" I will set 1/500 - 1/1000 second exposure time (in stad of I think 1/50 second flash sincro) the M contact will sincronize the flash and so I will obtain a "freeze" image.

wiltw · Jan 30, 2021

nokia2010 said:
Thanks for the info. So with M contact it wasn't necesarly that the specificallly design 1/50 second exposure time desinged for flash sincro.
I have one "Canon" Canonet camera (1st model) with leaf shutter (not focal plane like at "Exakta"). M is for medium reacting time flash bulbs?

'M' setting simply sent Voltage to the flashbulb, with a slight time delay to when the shutter opened, so that the bulb had time to come to peak intensity of light output before the opening of the shutter.The duration of light output of bulbs like AG-1 and M5 were sufficient for leaf shutters to operated at 1/500.
The FP bulbs had longer duration of light output (analogous to the HSS setting of modern on-camera flash) so that a focal plane shutter curtain could be a slit which moved across the film to expose it to 'apparently constant' light source.
The need for 1/60 on focal plane shutter cameras of the 1960s was simply that 1/60 was the fastest speed at which the shutter FULLY OPENED, and was not a travelling slit. Over the years, the focal plane shutter travel speed increased, allowing some to have a fully open shutter as fast as 1/125. The modern vertical travel shutter allows 1/200 or 1/250 (depending upon sensor size).

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

So "Exakta" did fully opened the shutter at 1/500 second when using flashbulbs or it didn't?

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

No. No 35mm focal plane shutter can be open fully at 1/500sec, even not the most modern ones.

You did not get the point.
The point is the so called FP bulbs were slow burning, thus for the whole time the shutter is in operation, forming that slit. That time for the older 35mm focal plane shutters was more than a 1/30sec.
Thus the bulb for over 1/30sec had to have an equal level output, and no peak.

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

Well, I'm a little bit more hard headed now... so with a FP bulb you could use 1/500 second, but with other type of bulbs or elecrtonic flash only 1/30-1/60 second?

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

Yes, about so.

The sync. esposure times for electronic flash with 35mm focal plane shutters varied. The longest exposure time was 1/30sec (e.g. Zenit), the shortest 1/250 (e.g. F6).
A common value was 1/100sec. The complete Canon A-series had 1/60sec.

nokia2010 · Jan 30, 2021

So for flashbulbs could be shorter or longer?

voceumana · Jan 30, 2021

Different types of flash bulbs had different burn rates, so yes, they can have long or short duration. Electronic flash is always a fast flash, and the shutter speed is chosen to let a focal plane shutter open fully. On focal plane shutters, there are 2 curtains--at slow speeds one curtain opens fully then the other curtain closes; at high speeds the 1st curtain opens only partially, and then it together with the 2nd curtain move across the film plane--like a sliding window.

AgX · Jan 30, 2021

nokia2010 said:
So for flashbulbs could be shorter or longer?

With the standard bulbs you are about right with the exposure time you gave. It varied a bit on precice model and what pre-fire time was set.

The few FP (long burning) bulbs could be used with any exposure time from 1/30sec up to the very shortest, if the pre-fire setting was M (maybe F too)

Basically one could use any form of flash (bulb or electronic) with longer exposure times than 1/30sec. The above was just meant for using the flash as effective as possible, by excluding as much ambient light as possible.

nokia2010 · Jan 31, 2021

I do have one "Minolta" SRT-101 or 102. Can choose FP contact too, for flash of 1/1000 second. But only M contact helps "freeze" a moving thing at shorter exposure times, or you can do it with FP contact too?
M contact ... I have at an "Canon" Canonet (1st model?) leaf shutter camera.
@AgX , how hard is to find in Germany flash bubs? Looked for Vakublitz and Vacublitz, not many results. But I think in German there are books about flash usage... my bad that I don't speak German, but probably I can understeand part of such an book.

Here is the rear of the above flash.

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

AgX said:
There were up to 3 synchronisation contacts (or settings) at cameras. Though having all 3 was rare.
X = electronic flash
M = medium reacting time flash bulbs
F = fast reacting time flash bulbs

Thus add an "FP" contact to the list.

Likely it is just an M contact.

AgX · Jan 31, 2021

Well, I looked through dozens of textbooks on flash lighting and camera design from several countries. Not even a hint at a FP contact.

As said I see it as M-contact in disguise.

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