Fixer Use

Dave Miller · Sep 14, 2005

Ive seen considerable discussion regarding types and makes of fixers, but never any on the method of it's use. For papers I follow exactly the same method that I use for developing paper, but for film I simply pour in the fixer and leave the drum to stand for 5 minutes, after inspection I may extend the fixing period if required to completely clear the film. My question is should I be agitating the fixer by periodic inversion, as when developing?

gnashings · Sep 14, 2005

Dave - I am glad you asked - as I read your post, I realized that I have been kind of guessing at this (I agitate every couple of minutes for film)... I'd love to hear some concrete input on this. Is there a difference in how well fix works based on agitation patterns?

seadrive · Sep 14, 2005

How To Use (Sprint Record Speed Fixer):

Immerse b&w films and papers for 3 minutes. Agitate continously for the first minute, and for 10-15 seconds of each minute thereafter.

When it comes to stuff I know nothing about (photographic chemicals being a good case in point), I tend to just follow the directions.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Sep 14, 2005

I use rollfilm and follow the instruction on the bottle, which says to agitate continuously for 2-4 minutes.

Bob F. · Sep 14, 2005

Ilford's instructions are to agitate the same as for developer. I tend to follow that, but usually with less precision, so I tend to agitate as and when, while I am washing up the graduates etc...

Cheers, Bob.

Ole · Sep 14, 2005

I do the same as Bob - and everyone else, it seems: Agitate a bit at first, then get busy tidying up (or something much more important - petting a cat), then agitate it a bit more before I get ready to pour the fixer out. Works every time. If it didn't, I would find a better fixer.

No wait - that's what I did, and it's even one of the reasons why I did it!

Carol · Sep 14, 2005

It's funny you should post this today as I was wondering the same thing last night while dev. a roll of film. I decided to give the container a decent swirl every so often while I was washing up. When I emptied it out it seemed a lot pinker than usual so now I don't know if I have done the wrong thing OR maybe done the right thing for the first time. I was using Agfa fixer on TMax100 film. Any help appreciated.

modafoto · Sep 14, 2005

I use a dilute fixer for 10 minutes (Agfa Acidofix or Agfa Rapid Fixer) and agitate for the first minute and then 2-3 times per minute afterwards. Works for me and I have fully fixed negs and I have never experienced any problems with this method.

If you think my method is wrong, please tell me so I can correct it.

Dave Miller · Sep 14, 2005

Bob F. said:
Ilford's instructions are to agitate the same as for developer. I tend to follow that, but usually with less precision, so I tend to agitate as and when, while I am washing up the graduates etc...

Cheers, Bob.

Read the instructions? Now theres a novelty! I must try that sometime.

seadrive · Sep 14, 2005

Dave Miller said:
Read the instructions? Now theres a novelty! I must try that sometime.

I believe you can find a Middle English translation somewhere on Ilford's web site.

MurrayMinchin · Sep 14, 2005

I see the resident Chemistry Guru's haven't sniffed this one out yet, so it's safe (?) to chime in

I use TF-3 and fix for three times the clearing time, agitating the first 30 seconds through the stack, then every 20 - 30 seconds after that. Once the lights get turned on I keep them in the fix "a little extra bit" while I take a peek at each negative, then they go into the water.

Murray

fschifano · Sep 14, 2005

Same as above. Fixing is something that requires less precision than developement, so I'm typically less than careful during that phase of the process. I have noticed, no surprise, that clearing time is substantially shortened when you agitate at about the same rate as you would for development. I use 2x the clearing time to insure that my film is completely fixed and don't worry about any extra magenta stain in my TMax films. That will clear with a soak in either hypo clearing agent or just plain water.

srs5694 · Sep 14, 2005

When I first began B&W developing, just a few months ago, I bought Tom Grimm's the Basic Darkroom Book. It contains this instruction for fixing film:

...pour in a premeasured amount of the fixer from a clean graduate and begin agitation. Bathe the film for the amount of time rrecommended in the fixer and/or film instructions.

This is very imprecise on the agitation schedule, but it does clearly specify to use agitation. I used the same agitatation schedule as for film, simply because when I was beginning I had enough things to keep straight that I didn't want to confuse agitation schedules across steps. I've also taken to doing clearing tests on a snip of film leader to determine appropriate total times. (I fix for twice the clearing time, or three times for T-grain films.) I've found that clearing times can vary a lot from one film to another, even with fresh fixer. Fomapan clears much more rapidly than Ilford or Kodak films, for instance -- even their conventional (non-T-grain) films.

FrankB · Sep 14, 2005

I fix for 4 minutes agitating for the first 30 secs and then 10 secs at the top of each minute.

I theorise it like this - the fixer, over time, gets saturated with silver salts (I'm not a chemist so I may have this wrong!) and loses its effectiveness. This doesn't happen spontaneously throughout all the liquid at the same time, it starts where the fixer is in contact with the paper/film. Agitation mixes the liquid around moving fresh fixer into contact with the paper/film and keeping the process working at a faster rate for more of the time.

(I'm now bracing myself (fairly cheerfully!) to be shot down in flames! )

All the best,

Frank

madvax · Sep 14, 2005

Dave Miller said:
Read the instructions? Now theres a novelty! I must try that sometime.

That's what I always do when everything else fails.

Ara Ghajanian · Sep 14, 2005

srs5694 said:
I've also taken to doing clearing tests on a snip of film leader to determine appropriate total times. (I fix for twice the clearing time, or three times for T-grain films.)

When you use a film leader, is it an exposed or unexposed leader?

Bob F. · Sep 14, 2005

Dave Miller said:
Read the instructions? Now theres a novelty! I must try that sometime.

Nah - reading the instuctions beforehand is for whusses - only read the instructions when things go wrong... Did I mention the 2 rolls of 120 that came out of the soup a uniform milky white?...

Cheers, Bob.

BTW, Silverprint sell the Tetenal test strips that measure fixer silver and ph - expensive but good for peace of mind. I use a strip and test clearing time with a bit of film for a belt and braces approach - been caught out too many times...

srs5694 · Sep 14, 2005

Ara Ghajanian said:
When you use a film leader, is it an exposed or unexposed leader?

Exposed, as I do it in full light. It is, however, undeveloped, so it always clears completely, sooner or later. (I suppose if the fixer were really bad, it wouldn't clear, but I've never tested with fixer that's so far gone it has no effect whatsoever.)

Ara Ghajanian · Sep 14, 2005

srs5694 said:
Exposed, as I do it in full light. It is, however, undeveloped, so it always clears completely, sooner or later. (I suppose if the fixer were really bad, it wouldn't clear, but I've never tested with fixer that's so far gone it has no effect whatsoever.)

That's great! So that leader I throw out every time now has an important use. I'm trying it tonight. And all you have to do is double or triple the time it takes to turn clear? Nice.
Ara

srs5694 · Sep 14, 2005

Ara Ghajanian said:
That's great! So that leader I throw out every time now has an important use. I'm trying it tonight. And all you have to do is double or triple the time it takes to turn clear? Nice.

Yup. The general rules I've seen are:

Measure clearing time using your film leader (or some other film scrap).
Use twice (or three times for T-grain films) the clearing time as your fixing time.
Once the measured clearing time doubles for a given type of film, the fixer is exhaused; discard it.

Using these rules, you don't need to keep such precise records of how many times you've used your fixer. Keep in mind that clearing times do vary from one type of film to another, though, so be sure to take this into account when determining when to ditch old fixer.

All this said, I don't claim to be an expert on fixers. It's possible some changes to the procedures I've outlined would work better or be safer.

jp80874 · Sep 14, 2005

Dave,

The extreme of what I have read here would be the Jobo CPP-2/CPA-2. I mention this just to suggest that you probably cant agitate too much by hand. Jobo went to a stronger motor according to the March 2002 Addendum to the manual. Using that model at the #4 setting, the drum spins at 86 rpm, stops and returns at 86 rpm in the following fixer cycle

The instructions for Rollo Pyro for 8x10 film (4x5, or roll film in other drums) in an Expert drum are: At the end of development dump the solution and do two quick water rinses (350ml per wash) in a period of one minute. Dont use acid stop. Pour in 350ml of fresh rapid fixer without hardener. Dont reuse fix, and dont use hardener..After five minutes, discard the fixer and do more water rinses. After further staining you wash for 20 minutes changing the water every two minutes.

Hope this helps.

John Powers

nworth · Sep 15, 2005

For film, I usually use Kodak F-34, a non-hardening fixer originally designed for color reversal paper. It has a pH of 6.5, which I think is a good comprimise. I always use it as a one-shot. Rumor has it that fixer washers out more easily without hardener. I use E-6 stabilizer as a rinse after washing. The stabilizer is basicly SH-5 hardener with Photoflo added. I _think_ it gives me enough hardening, and it certainly does its Photoflo thing.

For paper, I also use F-34, without any hardener. Fixing time for paper is 2 minutes, with agitation. I seldom do more than a few prints at a time, so I use a single fixer bath. I probably should use a two bath system. Fixer becomes exhausted easily by buildup of the argento-thiosulfate complex, and a large excess of thiosulfate is needed to keep the complex dissolved and to free it from the emulsion. The two bath system ensures this.

Dave Miller · Sep 15, 2005

Thanks for the input people. It seems that my leave it alone for 5 minutes while I wander off and have a coffee method may need re-examining. But then again, it does seem to work!

FrankB · Sep 15, 2005

If it ain't broke...

Check some of your oldest negs. If they're still fine and you're happy with your process then why change?!

One of the amazing things about this hobby is the way that experts with quite different methods of working (acid stop / alkali stop / water stop, two bath fix / one bath fix, Rodinal/Pyro/ID11/DD-X, etc.) can all produce utterly stunning results. I think the real magic bullet is to find something that works for you and stick to it!

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