Fixer time testing - fibre paper

Sim2 · Oct 20, 2014

Hi there,

Question here about testing for times for fixing fibre-based paper:

For the test; Should HCA be used before washing paper?

My normal print processing does include an HCA stage during print washing.
My test process is:

expose paper to room light for 1.30 min
3 mins soak in fresh water (mimic wet time in dev)
stopbath
paper in fixer for "testing time"
wash 25 min
4 min in sepia toner
wash 10 min
dry - observe!

Would the use of HCA have a negative effect on the process or should it be included as this then replicates actual print processing?

All thoughts welcomed.

Sim2.

ic-racer · Oct 20, 2014

You may find your answer in this thread on the same topic:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sim2 · Oct 20, 2014

Hmm, good link thanks however, as I understand it, the HT2 test is for the efficiency of print washing. The testing that I *believe* I am doing is for the minimum/ideal time for fixing the paper, as described in Way Beyond Monochrome, but there is no mention of using/not using HCA within this test. I may be wrong though :-/

ic-racer · Oct 20, 2014

I posted wrong link see this: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Gerald C Koch · Oct 20, 2014

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. You do know that the fixing time increases with each print passed thru the fixing bath. As the amount of silver halide in the bath increases so does the fixing time. If you are interested in archival permanence then a two bath system is recommended. This particularly true if you intend to tone the print. Fixation of an emulsion is a diffusion controlled process. Therefore the rate of fixation is dependent on temperature. The higher the temperature the faster the rate of fixation.

Ian Grant · Oct 21, 2014

The other fallacy of this test is it's unexposed to a negative and undeveloped so the silver halide load from each sheet of paper is much higher than normal when it comes to fixing.

Ian

StoneNYC · Oct 21, 2014

I think you guys are missing that he's questioning about using hypo clear not about the fixture itself.

With paper it's a good idea to wash the paper after your fixing time for a few minutes then use the hypo clear for 10 then wash again for another 5 minutes or so.

The only thing that hypo clear does is allow you to wash less time so you're not wasting as much water and increases the chances of fixer being removed entirely from the print rather than having some linger and ruining your prints years down the road.

It has nothing to do with the fixing times.

Rick A · Oct 21, 2014

Hey Stone, did you bother to read post #3 by the OP? He is asking about fixing times for paper.

miha · Oct 21, 2014

StoneNYC said:
With paper it's a good idea to wash the paper after your fixing time for a few minutes then use the hypo clear for 10 then wash again for another 5 minutes or so.

Only works with a super fresh ammonium fixer at film strength (1+4) with very short fixing times (30s - 60s). If you fix longer in a weaker and/or exhausted fixer you have to wash for a lot longer.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 21, 2014

Sim2 said:
Hmm, good link thanks however, as I understand it, the HT2 test is for the efficiency of print washing. The testing that I *believe* I am doing is for the minimum/ideal time for fixing the paper, as described in Way Beyond Monochrome, but there is no mention of using/not using HCA within this test. I may be wrong though :-/

the purpose of HCA is to ease washing.the test in the bookhowever, is designed to find the min. fixing time.as one has nothing to do with the other;no HCA for the test.Nevertheless, if you want to conduct the HT2 test follow your normal process.

StoneNYC · Oct 21, 2014

miha said:
Only works with a super fresh ammonium fixer at film strength (1+4) with very short fixing times (30s - 60s). If you fix longer in a weaker and/or exhausted fixer you have to wash for a lot longer.

How does a short wash time have anything to do with weakened fixer?

StoneNYC · Oct 21, 2014

Rick A said:
Hey Stone, did you bother to read post #3 by the OP? He is asking about fixing times for paper.

Yes, did you read the responses? I'm simply saying that HCA doesn't affect the fixing time at all and has nothing to do with fixing times, it's only wash times that are affected.

MattKing · Oct 21, 2014

StoneNYC said:
How does a short wash time have anything to do with weakened fixer?

Weak fixer requires you to fix much longer.

If you increase your fix times, more fixer is absorbed by the paper, and you have to wash much longer in order to get the fixer out of the paper.

Sim2 · Oct 21, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
the purpose of HCA is to ease washing.the test in the bookhowever, is designed to find the min. fixing time.as one has nothing to do with the other;no HCA for the test.Nevertheless, if you want to conduct the HT2 test follow your normal process.

Ralph,

Great - thanks for the answer.
I have previously done the HT2 test with my usual process; I am redoing the "min fixing time" test partly as I have been unable to do printing this year and partly due to printing with the newer MG Classic paper & wanting to see if there was a different result to Warmtone paper. When I ran the previous test I did not use HCA in my normal print process! Hence wanting to see if the HCA should be used or would affect the resulting stain test in the toner.

With your answer I'm happy now

Sim2.
(btw. great book, both volumes!)

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2014

The OP is doing a residual silver test by using toner. He wants to know if HCA will affect the results. He is not asking about how to wash prints. PE responded in a previous thread that papers should be adequately washed prior to testing for residual silver. Ralph's book indicates paper should be adequately washed prior to residual silver testing. Also, Ilford's package insert for FB papers indicates paper should be adequately washed prior to residual silver testing, but none of those references refer to the use of HCA. I don't think it would make any difference one way or the other.

StoneNYC · Oct 21, 2014

MattKing said:
Weak fixer requires you to fix much longer.

If you increase your fix times, more fixer is absorbed by the paper, and you have to wash much longer in order to get the fixer out of the paper.

OH!!! Thanks! I hadn't thought of that... I assumed rapid fixer was absorbed by the paper "to completion" so to speak and any further time was just time since it had hit its absolute absorption point already. Hmm....

Prof_Pixel · Oct 21, 2014

ic-racer said:
The OP is doing a residual silver test by using toner. He wants to know if HCA will affect the results. He is not asking about how to wash prints. PE responded in a previous thread that papers should be adequately washed prior to testing for residual silver. Ralph's book indicates paper should be adequately washed prior to residual silver testing. Also, Ilford's package insert for FB papers indicates paper should be adequately washed prior to residual silver testing, but none of those references refer to the use of HCA. I don't think it would make any difference one way or the other.

The use of HCA reduces the washing time required to obtain 'adequate washing'.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 21, 2014

4 min in sepia toner

The check for residual silver is done by placing a spot of selenium toner or sulfide solution on the white border of a print. If fixing is inadequate the spot will darken in relation to the rest of the border. Anything darker than a barely perceptible cream color indicates insufficient fixing. If the entire paper has been fogged you cannot perform the test as there is no unexposed paper to test on.

ic-racer · Oct 24, 2014

Prof_Pixel said:
The use of HCA reduces the washing time required to obtain 'adequate washing'.

That is obvious, but the question is if the HCA affects the testing for residual silver.

Fixer time testing - fibre paper

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