Fixer time for Negative and Paper

[nsmk82]

hi everyone, what is the different if i keep the negative or paper for the minimum time or maximum time?

for example for the negative the kodak says, 5-10min. also for paper?

please advice.

Reagrds

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

It depends on how exhausted the fixer is.

Test your fixer.

Always.

Take a scrap piece of film and put it in your fixer. See how long it takes for it to clear. If that time is more than about 45 seconds for rapid fixer, and more than about 2 minutes for standard fixer, then you need to mix fresh.

 

[bdial]

Excessive time in fixer may have a bleaching effect, so the minimum time that accomplishes the goal is best.

 

[David Allen]

The time in the fixer is simply the minimum time required to fully fix the film or paper.

Simply? – well not quite so simple as, as has been mentioned this depends upon how fresh your fixer is. Also, the time depends upon which fixer you are using. There are generally two types: a 'Plain Hypo' type of fixer will require substantially more time and a 'Rapid' type of fixer which requires substantially less time to fully fix the film or paper. In either case the powder or liquid packaging will have the manufacturers recommended fixing time. If you make your own fixer with raw chemicals, the published formula will give a recommended time.

You will also read that fixing for too long can cause bleaching. However, under fixing is far more of a problem and you would have to excessively over fix to experience any bleaching problems. More problematic with long fixing times is that with fibre-based paper you will have to wash much longer to remove the excessive fixer that has been absorbed into the paper.

I personally use rapid fixers all of the time. Across most manufactures the liquid concentrate for rapid fixer is diluted at a ratio of 1 + 4 (1 + 9 is also possible but with longer times). For film, using a dilution of 1 + 4 with rapid fixer, the fixing time is 2 minutes but 4 – 5 minutes is not a problem. For paper, using a dilution of 1 + 4 with rapid fixer, the recommended fixing time is 1 minute (when the fixer is fresh). You can regularly check how fresh your paper fixer is by using a number of available testing strips or by mixing your own liquid test based on a number of formulas easily found on the internet.

Personally, for paper, I use the 'two-bath' fixing regime. This is where, after the stop, you place the paper in one tray of rapid fixer for 1 minute and then place it in a second tray for a further minute. The first tray will take the brunt of the release of chemicals that decrease the effectiveness of the fixer. The second bath being fresher finishes the job. In practice, you test the first tray regularly until it has too much released chemicals from the paper to be effective. At this point you discard the first tray's fixer, rinse the tray and then move the second fixer tray to become your new working first fixer tray and then use the newly cleaned (former first fixer tray) to mix a fresh tray of fixer to act as your new second fixer tray.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

 

[Xmas]

the safest method for archival film is fix by inspection using two baths.

after three minutes in plain hypo it is safe to open tank lift reel out and inspect.

If the emulsion is milky

put reel back and agitate and inspect every minute

when it stops being milky fix for same length of time again, the milky to clear transition occurs quickly easy to detect.

Fixing is dependent on fix type and exhaustion, film, and temperature.

tabular grain films take a lot longer

don't worry too much about over fixing

 

[Doremus Scudder]

hi everyone, what is the different if i keep the negative or paper for the minimum time or maximum time?

for example for the negative the kodak says, 5-10min. also for paper?

please advice.

Reagrds

Let's keep it simple to begin with

Fixers: There are two kinds of fixers: slower-fixing "normal" fixers, usually in powder form, and faster, "rapid" fixers, usually supplied as a liquid concentrate. Fixing times vary with the kind of fixer being used. Fixing times also vary as the fixer is used. Used fixer fixes slower than fresh fixer. That is the reason for Kodak's "5-10 minutes" recommendation. They expect you to know your materials and the degree of fixer exhaustion.

There are different ways of determining fixing times for film and paper. The following should be all you need to get started.

Film:

First, Kodak's recommendation for film is as follows: "2 to 10 minutes depending on film and fixer combination." How long you fix your film depends not only on the fixer you have, but also on whether you have a "conventional" film or a high-tech modified grain film. These latter include the T-Max (Kodak) and Delta (Ilford) families of films. They take longer to fix. Other manufacturers' recommendations are similar. But, there's an easy way to find the right fixing time for film:

The rule of thumb for film is to fix for at least twice the clearing time. That means you need to do a test for clearing time before you fix your film.

Clip-test instructions: Take a piece of scrap film. Put a small drop of fixer on it and wait 30 seconds. Now, put the entire piece of film in the fixer and start timing. When the film clears to the point where you can no longer see the clear spot where the drop was, note the time. That is your clearing time.

Important note: Do this for fresh fixer and note the time. As you fix more and more film, the clearing time will increase. When the clearing time is twice that of fresh fixer it is exhausted. Discard it and mix new. See, the clip test does double-duty as a fixer capacity test

Finally, since film (and RC paper) has a waterproof base, it won't hurt to fix for a bit longer to be on the safe side. I fix for three times the clearing time always; longer when that time is less than the minimum recommended fixing time from the manufacturer. A slightly longer time also helps clear the pink cast that many Kodak films have. That is my recommendation.


Paper:

Kodak's recommendation for paper, for all their fixers, is as follows: "2 minutes for RC papers; 5 to 10 minutes for fiberbase papers (single bath)." Kodak's recommendation here is both ambiguous and not in agreement with products from many other manufacturers. More later.

Note the difference between RC and fiber-base papers. RC papers are similar to film, i.e., they have a waterproof base, and fix faster. If you are using RC paper, simply fix for the recommended time for the product you are using and discard your fixer when the capacity has been reached. The fixer instructions should give you a print capacity based on the number of prints that can be fixed. This will be something like, "100 8x10 prints per gallon" or "30 8x10 prints per liter," etc. You just need to do the arithmetic for the size of prints you are making and the amount of fixer you are using to come up with your fixer capacity. (Don't forget to count test strips and prints!). If you are not processing fiber-base prints, you can quit reading here

Fiber-base papers require longer fixing times. The vast majority of careful processors who work with fiber-base paper use a two-bath fixing regime. That is what I recommend; otherwise you really risk underfixing or have to waste a lot of good fixer.

Two-bath fixing: Mix two fresh fixing baths. Give half the total fixing time in bath one and half the fixing time in bath two. When the capacity (i.e., maximum number of prints) of bath 1 has been reached, discard it and replace it with bath 2 (which becomes bath 1 for the next round). Mix a new bath 2. You can repeat this sequence seven times. Then discard both baths and start with new ones. FWIW, I rarely use the two-bath method through three or four changes before mixing new.

But for how long? For fiber base prints and two-bath fixing, divide the manufacturer's recommended maximum time (in Kodak's case, 10 minutes) between the two baths; i.e., five minutes in each bath.

For other manufacturers' products, (e.g., Ilford, etc.) Read the ........ Instructions: Ilford and others have shorter times for their rapid fixers. There is always an instruction leaflet packed with, or glued onto, the fixer container. Plus, you can find data sheets for any product on the Internet. Use the proper times for the product you are using and, for safety's sake, use the maximum time divided between two baths.

There's a lot more to know about fixing, but the above is best practice IMHO. Use these recommendations and you will not go wrong.

Best,

Doremus

 

[nsmk82]

Let's keep it simple to begin with

Fixers: There are two kinds of fixers: slower-fixing "normal" fixers, usually in powder form, and faster, "rapid" fixers, usually supplied as a liquid concentrate. Fixing times vary with the kind of fixer being used. Fixing times also vary as the fixer is used. Used fixer fixes slower than fresh fixer. That is the reason for Kodak's "5-10 minutes" recommendation. They expect you to know your materials and the degree of fixer exhaustion.

There are different ways of determining fixing times for film and paper. The following should be all you need to get started.

Film:

First, Kodak's recommendation for film is as follows: "2 to 10 minutes depending on film and fixer combination." How long you fix your film depends not only on the fixer you have, but also on whether you have a "conventional" film or a high-tech modified grain film. These latter include the T-Max (Kodak) and Delta (Ilford) families of films. They take longer to fix. Other manufacturers' recommendations are similar. But, there's an easy way to find the right fixing time for film:

The rule of thumb for film is to fix for at least twice the clearing time. That means you need to do a test for clearing time before you fix your film.

Clip-test instructions: Take a piece of scrap film. Put a small drop of fixer on it and wait 30 seconds. Now, put the entire piece of film in the fixer and start timing. When the film clears to the point where you can no longer see the clear spot where the drop was, note the time. That is your clearing time.

Important note: Do this for fresh fixer and note the time. As you fix more and more film, the clearing time will increase. When the clearing time is twice that of fresh fixer it is exhausted. Discard it and mix new. See, the clip test does double-duty as a fixer capacity test

Finally, since film (and RC paper) has a waterproof base, it won't hurt to fix for a bit longer to be on the safe side. I fix for three times the clearing time always; longer when that time is less than the minimum recommended fixing time from the manufacturer. A slightly longer time also helps clear the pink cast that many Kodak films have. That is my recommendation.


Paper:

Kodak's recommendation for paper, for all their fixers, is as follows: "2 minutes for RC papers; 5 to 10 minutes for fiberbase papers (single bath)." Kodak's recommendation here is both ambiguous and not in agreement with products from many other manufacturers. More later.

Note the difference between RC and fiber-base papers. RC papers are similar to film, i.e., they have a waterproof base, and fix faster. If you are using RC paper, simply fix for the recommended time for the product you are using and discard your fixer when the capacity has been reached. The fixer instructions should give you a print capacity based on the number of prints that can be fixed. This will be something like, "100 8x10 prints per gallon" or "30 8x10 prints per liter," etc. You just need to do the arithmetic for the size of prints you are making and the amount of fixer you are using to come up with your fixer capacity. (Don't forget to count test strips and prints!). If you are not processing fiber-base prints, you can quit reading here

Fiber-base papers require longer fixing times. The vast majority of careful processors who work with fiber-base paper use a two-bath fixing regime. That is what I recommend; otherwise you really risk underfixing or have to waste a lot of good fixer.

Two-bath fixing: Mix two fresh fixing baths. Give half the total fixing time in bath one and half the fixing time in bath two. When the capacity (i.e., maximum number of prints) of bath 1 has been reached, discard it and replace it with bath 2 (which becomes bath 1 for the next round). Mix a new bath 2. You can repeat this sequence seven times. Then discard both baths and start with new ones. FWIW, I rarely use the two-bath method through three or four changes before mixing new.

But for how long? For fiber base prints and two-bath fixing, divide the manufacturer's recommended maximum time (in Kodak's case, 10 minutes) between the two baths; i.e., five minutes in each bath.

For other manufacturers' products, (e.g., Ilford, etc.) Read the ........ Instructions: Ilford and others have shorter times for their rapid fixers. There is always an instruction leaflet packed with, or glued onto, the fixer container. Plus, you can find data sheets for any product on the Internet. Use the proper times for the product you are using and, for safety's sake, use the maximum time divided between two baths.

There's a lot more to know about fixing, but the above is best practice IMHO. Use these recommendations and you will not go wrong.

Best,

Doremus

Thank you very much

 

[George Collier]

Doremus -
I've never heard the suggestion of regenerating the first and second baths after 7 "cycles". Is there that much accumulated "effluvia" in the 7th "first" bath?

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Doremus -
I've never heard the suggestion of regenerating the first and second baths after 7 "cycles". Is there that much accumulated "effluvia" in the 7th "first" bath?

That is the Kodak recommendation. I trust their research, which, however, was done many years ago. Ilford says four cycles maximum. I usually don't go beyond three or four cycles.

I assume that the reason for mixing new after a certain number of cycles is the build-up of by-products from carry-over, but have never read anything definitive about this.

Best,

Doremus