Fixer & steel wool

Markok765 · Jun 27, 2006

I have heard of using steel wool to clean fixer before throwing it away.

How is this done?

Do i even need to do it and why should i do it?

Claire Senft · Jun 27, 2006

You get a bucket and collect your used fixer. In the bucket you have steel wool. The silver will adhere to the steel wool. After the used fixer has been in there for awhile you can throw it away. I prefer to use aluminum foil. It is rasier to collect the silver. No, you are not required to do this.

unregistered · Jun 27, 2006

yes you need to do it because it is better for the environment.

I can't remember what you do exactly, but someone will post soon on that I am sure

psvensson · Jun 27, 2006

I doubt that it's better for the environment. If you pour used fixer down the drain, the silver ions will react with sulfides (and there's a lot of those in the drains - witness the smell) to form a sludge of silver sulfide, which is not toxic. See Dead Link Removed

To simulate this, pour Kodak Brown Toner instead of steel wool into the used fix.

Bob F. · Jun 27, 2006

Why? Silver in the fixer is harmful to the microorganisms that treat sewage.

Should you? The general consensus is that the small amounts of fixer discarded by individual photographers is not normally a serious hazard. However, some parts of the world are more stringent than others: sometimes for sociopolitical reasons, other times because of local water treatment methods and conditions. Check with your local environmental health authority (or whatever it is called in your part of the world) if you want to be sure. Of course, you may take the view that any silver is too much, and decide to remove as much as practical regardless of local regulations according to your personal environmental beliefs.

What you subsequently do with the silver-wire-wool concoction, I have no idea... Claire?

My local authority are happy with my flushing it down the drain with lots of water. A mini-lab owner who did the same would be looking at many thousands in fines and his business closed until suitable silver recovery equipment was installed.

I'm not sure if it is still practical in this digital age, but some people ask a local mini-lab operator to take the fixer off their hands. They will run it through their silver recovery system - something many are/were happy to do as the operator gets to keep the small amount of silver extracted.

Cheers, Bob.

reellis67 · Jun 27, 2006

I believe that the common opinion is that in the land fill, the silver-coated steel wool is safer. In the long run, it's still there and at some point will leak out into the ground water. Land fills have more problems that the news reports - it's just not scandalous enough for headlines. In my area I can drop off used fixer at the local recycling place, but you can also check with a local photo lab to see if they use either a silver recovery unit, or a recycling service. Another option is the trash service. Ours offers the ability to drop off toxic chemicals for a very small fee, since they know that they will end up in the landfill if they don't. It's worth checking into.

- Randy

Claire Senft · Jun 27, 2006

You can collect, with the aluminum foil, the granules of silver and when you have a bunch, you can sell it.

DBP · Jun 27, 2006

When I tried that the foil started to disintegrate. I'm going to try aluminum sheets next, as I have a neighbor who makes jewelry and can use the silver.

jim appleyard · Jun 27, 2006

You need to filter out whats left of the silver/steel wool/alum foil mess with a coffee filter (or silimlar) and sell it at a scrap metal dealer as silver. Pour the rest of the liquid down the drain. If you get enough silver, you'll be rich!!!

bob100684 · Jun 28, 2006

Claire Senft said:
You get a bucket and collect your used fixer. In the bucket you have steel wool. The silver will adhere to the steel wool. After the used fixer has been in there for awhile you can throw it away. I prefer to use aluminum foil. It is rasier to collect the silver. No, you are not required to do this.

In many towns you are required.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=2879/4191/4197&pq-locale=en_US

In the USA, the EPA has promulgated standards that are enforced by local and state laws pertaining to hazardous chemical disposal, and they do differ from location to location, even between counties. The best solution is to call your local county and ask to speak to the department that handles hazardous waste disposal, or check Google - many are online.

I am always amazed at the myths and outright untruths that follow these threads. Everything from "you're killing the planet" to "you can feed this stuff to babies and it would not hurt them." Nobody seems terribly interested in just asking the civil authority whose responsibility it is to know the local law regarding this.

psvensson · Jun 28, 2006

Wigwam Jones said:
I am always amazed at the myths and outright untruths that follow these threads. Everything from "you're killing the planet" to "you can feed this stuff to babies and it would not hurt them." Nobody seems terribly interested in just asking the civil authority whose responsibility it is to know the local law regarding this.

I have taken the time to understand this, and my impression, reinforced by the Kodak publications you linked to, is that silver discharges from an amateur darkroom are in practice harmless. The regulations you refer to usually assume that the darkroom is professional and high-volume. You may want to abide by local regualtions just because they're there, but if you don't, you're not harming your neighbors or the environment.

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/a4/0900688a8012f2a4/J-216_ENG.pdf

Although most photographic
processing facilities use silver-
recovery techniques that are efficient
(>90% recovery), there will usually be
a small amount of silver discharged,
as a tightly bound chemical complex
along with wastewater from the
processing activities.
These discharges are treated by
wastewater treatment plants, along
with other domestic and industrial
waste. Most wastewater treatment
plants operate by biological treatment
of the waste, a process where the
waste is treated with naturally
occurring microorganisms that break
down the waste products. During this
waste treatment, the silver complex is
converted into silver sulfide and
silver metalboth nearly insoluble
forms of silverand separated from
the water as part of the normal
treatment process. Typically, over 90%
of the silver reaching wastewater
treatment plants is removed. The
silver that is separated from the water
is then contained in the biological
(biosolids) solids (called sludge),
which are disposed of through land
application, landfilling, or
incineration. Because of the very low
water solubility of the silver
contained in the sludge, it does not
leave (leach from) the sludge to any
significant extent in landfills or soil
when used as a fertilizer.
The very small amount of silver that
is released from treatment plants to
bodies of water is in the form of either
tightly bound, soluble silver
complexes or nearly insoluble silver
forms such as sulfide. The soluble
silver complex may react with a
variety of naturally occurring
substances such as chemical
constituents of the water (e.g.,
chloride), organic constituents of the
water (e.g., humic acids) reactive
sulfides, and solid particles
suspended in the water. These
processes quickly render any soluble
silver forms nearly insoluble, and
remove them from the water. Silver
sulfide and silver particulates settle to
the bottom (sedimentation).

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

psvensson said:
I have taken the time to understand this, and my impression, reinforced by the Kodak publications you linked to, is that silver discharges from an amateur darkroom are in practice harmless.

According to you.

The regulations you refer to usually assume that the darkroom is professional and high-volume.

Which makes them optional - they don't apply if you don't agree with them.

You may want to abide by local regualtions just because they're there, but if you don't, you're not harming your neighbors or the environment.

Huh. Obeying laws, just because they're there. What a concept.

Claire Senft · Jun 28, 2006

Please do not think it is OK to drive a mile per hour faster than the speed limit.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

Claire Senft said:
Please do not think it is OK to drive a mile per hour faster than the speed limit.

I don't think it is ok, even if I do it. The illustration of extremes is hardly a defense.

Claire Senft · Jun 28, 2006

Not meant as a defense. Meant as a remark on human nature.

psvensson · Jun 28, 2006

I have a confession to make: I jaywalk all the time, when there are no cars around. I make an informed decision, then I break a local statute. I do this right in front of cops too - they're wise enough not to enforce a statute that makes no sense in that particular situation.

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

psvensson said:
I have a confession to make: I jaywalk all the time, when there are no cars around. I make an informed decision, then I break a local statute. I do this right in front of cops too - they're wise enough not to enforce a statute that makes no sense in that particular situation.

Routine justification for people doing as they bloody well please. Spoke to a man recently who refused to pull over for firetrucks with their lights and siren on - he stated that off-duty firemen probably break the law too (he had heard of a fireman arrested for DUI recently); not to mention that they were probably responding to a false alarm; and besides, nobody else was pulling over - why should he? Oh, and why was it any of my business what he did or did not do? Point taken - you're both right. Go, lemmings, go.

Claire Senft · Jun 28, 2006

What does the law say abput the disposal of used fixer in Wilson? How do you comply with these regulations?

removed account4 · Jun 28, 2006

i am always amazed when i read these threads ..
what does speeding on the highway have to do with dumping heavy metals down the drain?

in many places it is illegal to dump used photochemistry (selenium, toners, silver &C) down the drain. whether you think it is foolish, stupid or whatever, the fact is, it is illegal.

in parts of rhode island you get fined large amounts of money for being in "contempt" and not doing what you are supposed to do. i know of people near to where i live who were fined 10,000$ / day until they cleaned up their act.

call your local dept. of envirnonmental management to find out more about it.

Claire Senft · Jun 28, 2006

Speeding, jaywalking, chemical disposal etc are all laws. All should be complied with. What are your local laws in RI regading fixer disposal? How do you comply with them?

removed account4 · Jun 28, 2006

Claire Senft said:
Speeding, jaywalking, chemical disposal etc are all laws. All should be complied with. What are your local laws in RI regading fixer disposal? How do you comply with them?

my local laws are the strictest in the state.
all my photochemical waste is put into a drum
and a waste hauler takes it away.
i don't use toners &C, just dev, fix, perma was and water.

i am not permitted to let 3pts/million silver down my drain or i will be heavily fined. in providence the fines are higher, and the limits are higher too 5pts/million.

kb244 · Jun 28, 2006

Get a 1 Litre coke bottle, peel off the wrapper so you can see it, shove in peices of steel wool or aluminum. Then do the Fixer + that, but if you want it to be more fun add in some rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide after it's settled a little bit I think one or the other will either cause a cloudy reaction, or exothermic reaction.

removed account4 · Jun 28, 2006

psvensson said:
I have taken the time to understand this, and my impression, reinforced by the Kodak publications you linked to, is that silver discharges from an amateur darkroom are in practice harmless. The regulations you refer to usually assume that the darkroom is professional and high-volume. You may want to abide by local regualtions just because they're there, but if you don't, you're not harming your neighbors or the environment.

http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents/a4/0900688a8012f2a4/J-216_ENG.pdf

for years, wasn't kodak one of the biggest polluters in the country lol

Wigwam Jones · Jun 28, 2006

Claire Senft said:
What does the law say abput the disposal of used fixer in Wilson? How do you comply with these regulations?

Neither Wilson County nor the city of Wilson have a policy or law regarding the proper disposal of photographic chemicals. The state of North Carolina recommends various means of storing or recycling hazardous materials, but none of those methods apply to used fixer, with the exception of one:

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he368_3.html

Flush a very small amount - no more than a cup - down the drain with plenty of water.

Therefore, since I live in Wilson, I put my fixer down the drain with lots of water, as recommended.

Other counties in NC have 'household hazardous waste collection centers' and they accept used photographic chemicals on a specified collection time and day each month from their own residents.

http://www.wakegov.com/recycling/households/houshazwaste.htm

Generally, each water treatment district, county, or municipality has their own local laws and regulations regarding this type of household hazardous waste disposal.

When I lived in other cities, I took the time to find out what their local laws regarding used fixer disposal were and followed them. It isn't that hard to do, and if it makes no difference anyway, as some have said, at least it does no harm to follow the law.

Fixer & steel wool

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